FJRiders.com

Had a good ride the other day with two of my good buddies. One rides a 2017 Versys 1000, the other a 2018 BMW RT. At the lunch stop, we were discussing traction control systems, and the BMW rider was explaining the difference between their ATC (Automatic Traction Control) and the DTC (Dynamic Traction Control) systems.

Fascinated, I went home and pulled out my owner's manual and was kind of disappointed to realize that the traction control system I have on my bike does NOT work if the bike is leaned over. It's only designed to work in a straight line (ATC). So to me, it's really useless. I've only broken out the rear wheel on gravel one time acting stupid and trying to get the ATC to activate to see what it does and how it feels. Obviously, that was in a straight line with some medium packed gravel.

My point is that unless you are being way stupid on a wet road, the realistic chances you will ever need or use the ATC is very low. A yaw sensor that allows the ECU to sense a break in traction while the bike is LEANING would be infinitely beneficial. Wonder if the '16 and up models have this since they must have some kind of yaw sensor in order for the leaning LED lights to work.

To me, the ATC on my bike is useless.

You sure about that? I mean what's considered "leaning over"? I hit a tar snake mildly upright, not serious leaning it I'd swear, in that fraction of a second, it stopped me from going down. But I have no real way to know. Was it traction control or just the tire working? I felt like it was the traction control. Maybe I'm wrong?

I thought the way ATC worked was it used the speed sensors at each wheel (for the ABS). If a difference in speed was detected (faster in rear than front), then the ECU sends a signal to the engine to back off the power. It's a reactive system. But it has occurred to me that if this were happening during a loss of traction while leaning the bike, even though the ATC might react, it won't stop the fall.

I'm still trying to learn more about it.

I’ll tell you a little story.

Before buying my ‘18 I put a lot of very aggressive miles on my ‘03. Track days and backroad twisties and holding nothing back. Never even thought about needing Traction control or ABS for that matter.

Fast forward to my ‘18. Still played on the track and same twisty backroads. One early morning on a road I have travelled many times I was crossing a wooded bridge (at a good pace). Half way across while leaned over the bike seemed to straighten up slightly with a very slight loss in power. Then I noticed this small light flash briefly. If I as in the old bike with no traction control it would have ended in a very bad day. Moral of the story, it works while leaned over.


Canadian FJR

Hppants wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:06 am Had a good ride the other day with two of my good buddies. One rides a 2017 Versys 1000, the other a 2018 BMW RT. At the lunch stop, we were discussing traction control systems, and the BMW rider was explaining the difference between their ATC (Automatic Traction Control) and the DTC (Dynamic Traction Control) systems.

Fascinated, I went home and pulled out my owner's manual and was kind of disappointed to realize that the traction control system I have on my bike does NOT work if the bike is leaned over. It's only designed to work in a straight line (ATC). So to me, it's really useless. I've only broken out the rear wheel on gravel one time acting stupid and trying to get the ATC to activate to see what it does and how it feels. Obviously, that was in a straight line with some medium packed gravel.

My point is that unless you are being way stupid on a wet road, the realistic chances you will ever need or use the ATC is very low. A yaw sensor that allows the ECU to sense a break in traction while the bike is LEANING would be infinitely beneficial. Wonder if the '16 and up models have this since they must have some kind of yaw sensor in order for the leaning LED lights to work.

To me, the ATC on my bike is useless.

It didn't work on my 13 on, say, March 23, 2019....according to anecdotal hearsay from friends who verbally reconstructed events of that day.

I have distinct memories of it and the ABS working while vertical chasing Hoons in NC on RT80 north of Marion in 2018.

Shaft bikes can't wheelie -- with the TCS ON. Yamaha legal speak has to be very conservative about what TSC can and can't do. Some idiot will do something, well, idiotic and then sue Yamaha because the TCS caused and accident, regardless of how idiotic the rider's actions were. A yaw sensor mixed into the TCS sensor family would help some, but I wouldn't depend on it with a street bike. At the drag strip I always turn off the TCS. If I forget, on the first launch I get a steady orange light and notice the lack of a front wheel lift. It also hurts both the elapsed time and mph.

Yamaha mentions that the TCS will help the motorcycle get unstuck from mud, sand or other soft surfaces.

The TCS will to an extent prevent the rear wheel from slipping while leaned over. Lean over on sand or wet pavement and whack the throttle wide open and the TCS probably can't save your ass. As Yamaha notes, the TCS doesn't prevent the front wheel from slipping (duh). My V-Max wiped out in mid turn on a large white painted turn arrow that was wet. TCS *may* have prevented that accident. Perhaps a real test of TCS would be one of the roadway water crossings, like the one that wiped out most of a FJR ride one day. I have slid my '15 on corners in spite of TCS, nothing major but the rear end hiked out slightly. I was in such an OH SHIT moment that I never notice if the TCS light came on. Regardless, even without the TCS warning it told me to back off a bit

I first became aware of this 2014 when I had signed my son's and I up for an advanced rider school with Zulaski Advanced Riding School. The week before we were set to go my youngest son sold his R6. I was either forced to loan my son my old Ducati 999 Superbike and ride my 2013 FJR or he wasn't going to be able to join us. I made the choice to loan my son the bike so we could all go. I wasn't crazy about the idea because I was leaving on the FJR for Beemerdon's SW-FOG in Silver city NM in a few days and didn't want to crash the FJR while pushing it hard out on a track.

Anyhow it was a great educational experience getting the FJR out on a track type atmosphere and learning the limits of traction and cornering. As my confidence in the FJR was increasing throughout the day I was rolling on the throttle harder and earlier coming out of corners until I started noticing the TCS light flashing at me out of the corner of my eye. Once I figured out what the flashing was then it was game on for a while intentionally attempting to spin up the rear tire while trying to get a knee puck down on the tarmac to drag a knee on the big ole FJR. So yes the traction control does work in corners. Since learning this, I have noticed the TSC flashing at me dozens of times out on the road rolling on the throttle hard out of corners.

So I take it that if you grab a large enough handful of throttle in a corner such that the rear wheel breaks out, then indeed the TCS will pull back the motor and you might not crash. What if the front wheel is washing out and slows (relative to the rear) wheel enough - will the TCS also try to pull the motor back, and if so, would that save you? Likely not - this is what I was hoping would happen. On the street - this is my most likely scenerio. On wet road, my riding is so conservative that I probably won't use the TCS much. On dry pavement (streets), again, while I can push the big girl in the corners, I'm much smoother in the turns and so the difference in speed before and after the apex is not so dramatic. Those that have followed me know that when its dry and I'm in the groove in the twisties, you will hardly ever see my brake lights.

My other thought is that the holy grail likely doesn't really exist anyway. If a yaw sensor was brought into the equation, by the time the bike sensed to much lean, told the ECU as such, and the ECU reacted in whatever fashion it though necessary, it would be all over.

Not trying to over think it, even though I am.

It ain’t gonna save you if you make a mistake, even if riding very conservatively like I was.

Had this same discussion in another sandbox.... prompted by a guy who was on a slight uphill coming out of a gravel driveway, wheel slightly turned, rear wheel started to spin.... ECU cut the power and ooops, down he went. So, in that situation, shut it off much like you would with a dual sport. I think of it more of keeping wheel spin down while hard accelerating from a stop...... but I don't to that or attempt wheelies anyway, so TCS could be off for all I care.
If Scott says it works on leans, then there's the real ticket.... I assume while under slight acceleration on a slippery surface..... Wheatie, if hidden sand and the front or rear wheel slips out, TCS wouldn't be in play. Sand is miniature ball bearings, not much you can do.

Traction Control, especially on 2 wheels is there to help maintain control in specific circumstances. There are times where it will come in handy while hiding in the background the rest of the time. Like anything, if one pushes the bike hard enough, there is nothing TC can do to save it. TC on a MC has to be much less intrusive than in a 4-wheeled vehicle.

The traction control and stability control in our Explorers works really well. Hit something too fast and it will subtlety brake certain wheels or just reduce power. On a MC, it probably can't do that. Adding brake as a bike starts to lose traction is not a good thing. So, with the Explorers we have noticed it takes a LOT to push these things out of control but if the driver does that, there is no saving it. By then, they are so far out of control that braking or reducing power can't do much to stop a steep yaw slide. Push the bike like that and the whole thing is gonna bang the ground.

Like any tool, use it within its limits. Just like ABS.

Well said.

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:30 pm Traction Control, especially on 2 wheels is there to help maintain control in specific circumstances. There are times where it will come in handy while hiding in the background the rest of the time. Like anything, if one pushes the bike hard enough, there is nothing TC can do to save it. TC on a MC has to be much less intrusive than in a 4-wheeled vehicle.

The traction control and stability control in our Explorers works really well. Hit something too fast and it will subtlety brake certain wheels or just reduce power. On a MC, it probably can't do that. Adding brake as a bike starts to lose traction is not a good thing. So, with the Explorers we have noticed it takes a LOT to push these things out of control but if the driver does that, there is no saving it. By then, they are so far out of control that braking or reducing power can't do much to stop a steep yaw slide. Push the bike like that and the whole thing is gonna bang the ground.

Like any tool, use it within its limits. Just like ABS.

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:30 pm Traction Control, especially on 2 wheels is there to help maintain control in specific circumstances. There are times where it will come in handy while hiding in the background the rest of the time. Like anything, if one pushes the bike hard enough, there is nothing TC can do to save it. TC on a MC has to be much less intrusive than in a 4-wheeled vehicle.

The traction control and stability control in our Explorers works really well. Hit something too fast and it will subtlety brake certain wheels or just reduce power. On a MC, it probably can't do that. Adding brake as a bike starts to lose traction is not a good thing. So, with the Explorers we have noticed it takes a LOT to push these things out of control but if the driver does that, there is no saving it. By then, they are so far out of control that braking or reducing power can't do much to stop a steep yaw slide. Push the bike like that and the whole thing is gonna bang the ground.

Like any tool, use it within its limits. Just like ABS.

Who the F*** are you and what did you do with AJ? That was way too eloquent for him to author. So what did you do with my beloved dumbass?

Well, BANG the ground I did...so I can attest to that. Good thing I wasn't wearing my usual little plastic Nazi head bucket.

SkooterG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:57 pm

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:30 pm Traction Control, especially on 2 wheels is there to help maintain control in specific circumstances. There are times where it will come in handy while hiding in the background the rest of the time. Like anything, if one pushes the bike hard enough, there is nothing TC can do to save it. TC on a MC has to be much less intrusive than in a 4-wheeled vehicle.

The traction control and stability control in our Explorers works really well. Hit something too fast and it will subtlety brake certain wheels or just reduce power. On a MC, it probably can't do that. Adding brake as a bike starts to lose traction is not a good thing. So, with the Explorers we have noticed it takes a LOT to push these things out of control but if the driver does that, there is no saving it. By then, they are so far out of control that braking or reducing power can't do much to stop a steep yaw slide. Push the bike like that and the whole thing is gonna bang the ground.

Like any tool, use it within its limits. Just like ABS.

Who the F*** are you and what did you do with AJ? That was way too eloquent for him to author. So what did you do with my beloved dumbass?

This is what happens when I try to be nice.

SkooterG wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:57 pm

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:30 pm Traction Control, especially on 2 wheels is there to help maintain control in specific circumstances. There are times where it will come in handy while hiding in the background the rest of the time. Like anything, if one pushes the bike hard enough, there is nothing TC can do to save it. TC on a MC has to be much less intrusive than in a 4-wheeled vehicle.

The traction control and stability control in our Explorers works really well. Hit something too fast and it will subtlety brake certain wheels or just reduce power. On a MC, it probably can't do that. Adding brake as a bike starts to lose traction is not a good thing. So, with the Explorers we have noticed it takes a LOT to push these things out of control but if the driver does that, there is no saving it. By then, they are so far out of control that braking or reducing power can't do much to stop a steep yaw slide. Push the bike like that and the whole thing is gonna bang the ground.

Like any tool, use it within its limits. Just like ABS.

Who the F*** are you and what did you do with AJ? That was way too eloquent for him to author. So what did you do with my beloved dumbass?

He had his wife write it up for him.

My TC light doesn't come on that often on the FJR. I just see it briefly every once in awhile. Generally accelerating out of a turn.

Now the MT09 is different. It has a couple of levels of TC. You can turn it off, level 1 and level 2. On Level 2 it comes on pretty easy. You can gas it hard and it comes on and pulls back engine power. I think to stop wheel spin and probably to keep the front on the ground. I am going to have to read up to make sure it has some type of wheelie control. I think it has to because on level 2 it will cut power to keep the front down.

MT09 might have a completely different system than an FJR.

That bike is teaching me how TC works and what level I need to run. The FJR TC only came on during an Oh crap moment. On the MT09 TC comes on way more often. Even when you feel in control.

Very different bikes.

danh600 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:04 am ...it comes on and pulls back engine power. I think to stop wheel spin and probably to keep the front on the ground...

One of the main parameters the TCS looks at is speed differential between the front and rear wheel. Anytime the rear wheel is turning faster than the front wheel the TCS 'thinks' the rear tire is slipping. How fast is the front wheel turning when it's off the ground I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that as soon as the front tire leaves the pavement (even a fraction of an inch/cm) it is at least a few RPM slower than the rear tire, which is enough to trigger the TCS.

ionbeam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:13 am

danh600 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:04 am ...it comes on and pulls back engine power. I think to stop wheel spin and probably to keep the front on the ground...

One of the main parameters the TCS looks at is speed differential between the front and rear wheel. Anytime the rear wheel is turning faster than the front wheel the TCS 'thinks' the rear tire is slipping. How fast is the front wheel turning when it's off the ground I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess that as soon as the front tire leaves the pavement (even a fraction of an inch/cm) it is at least a few RPM slower than the rear tire, which is enough to trigger the TCS.

While I agree with the logic, I did once wheelie my 2014, though not sustained. I wanted to overtake on a winding road, had to wait for when I could see sufficient road clear of oncoming traffic. I'd dropped down to either second or first, engine singing nicely. Come the opportunity, had to do a quick overtake, opened the throttle wide. Front end lifted as I was passing the car, I slackened the throttle to bring the front down. (Felt like it rose a foot, probably only a couple of inches, I don't "do" wheelies.) I don't know if the TC activated or not. In any case it only lasted a very short while, but the front wheel did lift. And, no, I hadn’t turned the TC off.

Can't really comment about it activating when cornering, though I've known it working in a straight line. It did once save me when crossing a ford that was deeper and more slippery than was sensible, the bike crabbing in the fairly fast flowing water, but kept moving and got me through (I did post about the experience elsewhere, some regulars of both sandboxes may remember it).

MACATROPHY PULLS A WHEELIE?!?!

Gotta be fake news.

Only "saw the light" one time: sliding around in slimy mud near Atlanta, MN