FJRiders.com

RacinRay wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:23 pm

bill lumberg wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:16 am I’d call Corporate directly. I don’t believe for a moment that there is a special flash for some bikes that limits normal revs. If it were my bike, I’d bet that the dealer was misleading me because they didn’t want to go back into the bike to see what they’d screwed up. Next most likely a that they asked someone at the bozo show in Kennesaw, who made up something on the spot.

Both are plausible, and have happened before. Either way, this is not normal for a reflashed bike post recall, as a number of us can attest. Good luck with your dilemma. I’d be upset too.

The person I spoke with at Yamaha Corporate said the issues I described are do to the reflash. He said the reflash is not optional for the dealer/customer.

If that is happening to your bike and no others or very few others, there's a problem with the flash. They need to do it again. You should not take your bike in for a recall and then end up with a bike that you can't ride the way you ride it. IF reflashing it again does not work, they may have to replace the ECU. That is on them. The recall is not due to something you did, it is due to a failure on their part.

You should NOT have to pay someone to flash your ECU after they "fixed" it, in order to fix their fix. Be polite yet firm.

At least the malfunction is straightforward and should be easy to demonstrate. When my tps began failing, neither the dealer or Yamaha thought there was a problem. Only when it became worse did everyone get on board and fix it. I’d like to know what went wrong with Ray’s, but I’m not sure we’ll ever know.

Let's say it this way. You purchased a SPORT/TOURING motorcycle that had no restrictions on either engine performance or number of continuous hours of operation. Yamaha says SPORT and should reasonably expect the bike to be ridden in a sporting mode (it's even dash selectable) and Yamaha should reasonably expect the bike to be ridden on a track. Without informing you, Yamaha has given you back a bike that no longer functions as a SPORT bike and has limited the FJRs use as a track or drag racing motorcycle.

Yamaha acknowledges that the FJR has a reliability issue, not a performance issue, yet returned a bike that no longer meets previous performance levels. Yamaha should be giving you back a bike with the same performance with improved reliability. If Yamaha's solution results in a bike that no longer meets the standards to which it was advertised and no longer meets the performance you purchased, they should not have implemented the 'fix' and continued to pursue a correct solution that addresses only the reliability problem.

Further, Racin's bike exhibits a performance flaw which can't be replicated (so far) in other FJRs which have had the recall work done. There should be an expectation that Racin's bike's performance is recognized as an unexpected result. A good dealer should work with Yamaha to get this addressed. I needed to get Yamaha's regional tech involved to resolve an operational issue. It happened because my dealer pursued this through Yamaha.

So, is anyone brave enough willing to let Ray ride your repaired bike to see if he can replicate his issue on your bike?

Ray is welcome to ride my bike.

But there’s no question as to whether it’ll do the things he describes his doing. He had me wondering, so I specifically ran it through the situations he described. No such issues.

I wonder if maybe some of the dealers are skipping the actual reflash because they know what it actually does and how pissed customers are going to be at them when they come back complaining.

There is a huge thread on this recall in another sandbox. A few reports of reflash issues, difficult to decipher or get clarity sometimes, but eventually we may understand it all. I do intend to ride a couple of these bikes to see for myself. One guy had his ECU bricked, I think because of dealer perhaps not doing it properly. The thing Ray describes is something new... the majority are not seeing issues, like Mr. Lumberg not noticing anything, not seeing rev limiters in first or second, but a couple have said so. There shouldn't be any, if anything, a slight adjustment of fuel map in second, I would think, akin to a slight change of "mode" in second, should be imperceptible IMHO.
A bunch of us like hard twisties, maybe even a track day, and revving high in second and third, taking advantage of engine braking and acceleration, I wouldn't want anything to affect that beyond something really subtle.... akin to what ionbeam is saying.
I can only think there may be some built-in feature to prevent high revs while slipping the clutch in first... but it's still a big question.

Festus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:32 am I wonder if maybe some of the dealers are skipping the actual reflash because they know what it actually does and how pissed customers are going to be at them when they come back complaining.

THAT wouldn't be good!

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:15 am

Festus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:32 am I wonder if maybe some of the dealers are skipping the actual reflash because they know what it actually does and how pissed customers are going to be at them when they come back complaining.

THAT wouldn't be good!

OTOH, I think skipping the reflash is an excellent idea.

According to the original post...

RacinRay wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:22 pm ...My issue is now, when I try to launch the bike in 1st gear, the rev limiter is kicking in at approximately 3,000 RPM. It only happens when I'm slipping the clutch. The bike will rev normally once the clutch is fully engaged. I don't understand why Yamaha would do this when 2nd gear was the problem cog. The engine revs freely in neutral and in all gears after the clutch lever is released fully...

It is a happening ONLY when slipping the clutch.
Not a rev limiter kicking in for 1st or 2nd EXCEPT when the clutch is partly engaged.

Seems like this is going to be the cause of many low speed crashes. When maneuvering a motorcycle at slow speeds in limited spaces it is proper riding technique to slip the clutch and keep the RPMs higher so you can ease out the clutch if the motorcycle starts to lose stability. This will of course apply more engine power to rear wheel and therefore help you maintain balance and control. Yet this only works if the motorcycle is not stumbling due to slipping the clutch.

I pick mine up on Tuesday evening and should know if it is doing this shortly thereafter. I for one cannot accept that if it is what happens when they complete the flash of the ECU.

Well, was it here or elsewhere.... a guy told the story of riding his FJR up a stony gravel driveway, slows at the top to ensure no cars coming, has bars slightly turned, tries to ease out, rear wheel spins, TCS kicks in and power is cut. Bike down. That sux. Remember to turn TCS off in that situation...

If I set out to try to destroy my clutch, I can replicate this. It’s not anything I’d ever hit, under any natural condition, on any surface. I had to go far beyond any treasonable use of the clutch to get it to happen. Simply not a concern, for me. Having If I ever encounter it in the wild, something else has already gone terribly wrong. Only happens with the clutch pulled mostly in, over 3k, coming out of first, or maybe second. I wasn’t doing it again. I ride hard, but that’s just abuse.

FJRoss wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:41 pm According to the original post...

RacinRay wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:22 pm ...My issue is now, when I try to launch the bike in 1st gear, the rev limiter is kicking in at approximately 3,000 RPM. It only happens when I'm slipping the clutch. The bike will rev normally once the clutch is fully engaged. I don't understand why Yamaha would do this when 2nd gear was the problem cog. The engine revs freely in neutral and in all gears after the clutch lever is released fully...

It is a happening ONLY when slipping the clutch.
Not a rev limiter kicking in for 1st or 2nd EXCEPT when the clutch is partly engaged.

bill lumberg wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:31 pm If I set out to try to destroy my clutch, I can replicate this. It’s not anything I’d ever hit, under any natural condition, on any surface. I had to go far beyond any treasonable use of the clutch to get it to happen. Simply not a concern, for me. Having If I ever encounter it in the wild, something else has already gone terribly wrong. Only happens with the clutch pulled mostly in, over 3k, coming out of first, or maybe second. I wasn’t doing it again. I ride hard, but that’s just abuse.

FJRoss wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:41 pm According to the original post...

RacinRay wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:22 pm ...My issue is now, when I try to launch the bike in 1st gear, the rev limiter is kicking in at approximately 3,000 RPM. It only happens when I'm slipping the clutch. The bike will rev normally once the clutch is fully engaged. I don't understand why Yamaha would do this when 2nd gear was the problem cog. The engine revs freely in neutral and in all gears after the clutch lever is released fully...

It is a happening ONLY when slipping the clutch.
Not a rev limiter kicking in for 1st or 2nd EXCEPT when the clutch is partly engaged.

Bill, did you try this with and without the TCS enabled?
Apparently Ray had it happen in either case but I would EXPECT the engine to falter due to spinning the rear tire on hard acceleration if the TCS was on but not with it off.

No. I had to seriously abuse the clutch to make it happen. Not something that would have triggered if I hadn’t manufactured it. I was barely moving or accelerating. No chance of tire spin.

It’s not something that I’d have ever encountered while riding, on any surface. Kind of like redlining sitting in your garage in neutral. Not something that’s going to happen unless you force
It to. Not even remotely a concern for me.

I’m trying to choose my words delicately- it is real, it’s just not anywhere in normal operating range, regardless of conditions,
for me.

Obviously different strokes for different folks.

Personally, I can see revving in the 3-6k range with clutch barely starting to engage (and most likely using a little rear brake) when doing really slow speed maneuvering under certain circumstances. For example performing figure 8 u-turns in the MSF course u-turn box.

So it sounds like these types of conditions will cause the issue? If so, to me that is not a good thing.

I can hoon all day, complete every MSF course, and never come close to triggering this symptom. I have to do something I’d never need or want to do to trigger this. Quite happy, thus far.

“ My issue is now, when I try to launch the bike in 1st gear, the rev limiter is kicking in at approximately 3,000 RPM. It only happens when I'm slipping the clutch. The bike will rev normally once the clutch is fully engaged.”

This sounds like a drag race launch.
I don’t do this every ride but definitely happens from time to time. Still haven’t had a chance to get mine out but soon I hope.

Canadian FJR

The only time I’ve ever, on any bike, come close to this, is when my RT puked up a valve. Being an RT, that meant 50% of my already modest power was gone. I had to rev high and slip the clutch just to get it to move from a stop. Got me home though.

On my fjr, this only kicks in about a galaxy away from any useful “friction zone”. I’m surprised anyone found it, and further surprised that I was curious enough to reach far enough to find it myself. For all I know, my FJR’s always did this. I’d never have found out under natural riding conditions. Kind of a party trick. Not a limitation for a competent rider. I’m not saying that someone who stumbled across it isn’t competent. I’m saying you can make an fjr walk, talk, call for it’s mommy, do low
speed maneuvers, etc., and never come close to inducing this (rev limit) effect. Like a Harley revving at a red light, it’s an affectation or something done for enjoyment, not something needed to make the bike perform.



Science!

I picked my motorcycle up today. While the service manager was running through the things that they did to the motorcycle. He specifically cited the ECU flash and said that it will hit a rev limiter only in 1st or 2nd gear when the motorcycle approaches 4K RPMs and the clutch is being held in the friction zone (not fully squeezed and not fully released). When the limiter kicks in it cuts in and out holding RPMs to ~3.6K. He even showed me this before me taking delivery.

He provided all of the above without my mentioning it to him, so at least some dealers know what the flash is doing.

I believe based on how high the RPMs are when it kicks in, it most likely is not going to be a limited space maneuver issue when using the friction zone to add control to the motorcycle. Time will tell. Under normal riding.

Service manager also stated that other than slipping the clutch in the friction zone in 1st/2nd gear, there are no limits other than red line under normal operations. I.E. you can accelerate as hard as you want 1st thru 6th gears and as long as you don't ride the clutch the only limit will be the red line. I accelerated very ambitiously on the way home and experienced no noticeable differences from operation before the recalls. Both S and T modes were still present and as before S mode provides noticeably faster throttle response and acceleration.

Kind Regards,

Cheesehead

Thank you Mr. Lumberg and Cheesehead for the clarification(s). I also can't imagine I'd intentionally slip the clutch to reach those limits. I'd be thinking, my poor clutch and wouldn't slip it that much.
FYI, starting with 2013 and throttle by wire, the clutch switch sends a signal to the ECU to increase rpm by about 100 when you just start to release it. Anti-stall feature, you'll feel that increase if you do it slowly and not add in any throttle.