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Intech wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:30 am ...All that raw fuel maybe put a vapor lock on the engine.?...

Hydrolock. Much more severe than a vapor lock. Vapor can be compressed, liquid can't be compressed and is the equivalent of having the piston hit an iron block in the cylinder. If this is indeed what happened then the crank, rods, rod ends and plain bearings need careful inspection.

On the other hand, I don't see how a running engine could dump sufficient fuel into one cylinder, in one engine cycle to completely hydrolock the engine. Usually hydrolock happens over night because an injector is incontinent and dribbles all night filling a cylinder which is on the power stroke.

Yes, it sounds like an injector failed and filled the cylinder. I'm curious about how that created metal shavings in the oil. My SWAG would be that the extreme pressure caused by liquid in the cylinder of a running engine stressed the crankshaft and/or connecting rod bearings causing them to fail. If that is true then it is a testimonial to the durability of the head gasket and bolts since I would have expected the gasket to pop.

It looks like Ionbeam had the same idea and beat me to it.

ionbeam wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:22 am

Intech wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:30 am ...All that raw fuel maybe put a vapor lock on the engine.?...

Hydrolock. Much more severe than a vapor lock. Vapor can be compressed, liquid can't be compressed and is the equivalent of having the piston hit an iron block in the cylinder. If this is indeed what happened then the crank, rods, rod ends and plain bearings need careful inspection.

On the other hand, I don't see how a running engine could dump sufficient fuel into one cylinder, in one engine cycle to completely hydrolock the engine. Usually hydrolock happens over night because an injector is incontinent and dribbles all night filling a cylinder which is on the power stroke.

That explains it, when my children ask about "incontinence' they are talking about the injectors on my FJR. Whew, I thought they might be worried about ME.

Geezer wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:32 am Yes, it sounds like an injector failed and filled the cylinder. I'm curious about how that created metal shavings in the oil. My SWAG would be that the extreme pressure caused by liquid in the cylinder of a running engine stressed the crankshaft and/or connecting rod bearings causing them to fail. If that is true then it is a testimonial to the durability of the head gasket and bolts since I would have expected the gasket to pop.

It looks like Ionbeam had the same idea and beat me to it.

That makes sense. The injector started leaking on the exhaust stroke and filled the exhaust then the cylinder was full when it got to the compression stoke and locked it up. That also makes sense for how he explained the occurrence.

Intech wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:30 am You are correct. I meant no coolant in the oil. Will look at the injectors too. All that raw fuel maybe put a vapor lock on the engine.?

Ah. My misunderstanding.

I don't think a leaking injector would sieze an engine. I suspect it was rich enough to mess up the fuel trims and reduce power severely, then when the engine died or was shut off the dribbling fuel filled the cylinder enough to prevent cranking until it was cleared.

Thus, I would suspect no bent parts in the engine. No need to order conrods or pistons, which typically bend when an engine hits something solid in the cylinder. As stated before, liquid is extremely strong in a hydraulic stress situation and acts like a solid under compression.

As for metal shavings...

Fuel is a shitty lubricant. When oil gets diluted with fuel, it starts acting on rubbing places first. Any place that has pressure and a rubbing motion. Think cam lobes and bearing surfaces. Rod and crank bearings. Any place with high mechanical pressure and sliding motion. Things like cylinder walls and oil pumps and such don't get hit hard...at first. Usually crank bearings are large enough compared to the oncoming force that the actual pressure is low. So they go second -ish.

Check the cam lobes, the cam journals amd bearings and other "small" places with sliding motion. I bet you find the wear there. If the engine oil is "glittery" and not full of chunks, chances are you can cure the raw fuel leak, change the oil with some higher than normal (20W-50 Aeroshell???) Viscosity oil and run it a hundred miles then change back to your normal oil.

I suspect, from your description, that is probably the problem.

Now, I have a haircut scheduled over the speaker phone so I gotta run...

I would not split the cases nor remove the head until I figured out what happened. If you split the cases, you are in for a ton of new parts, not worth it at all. Worst case, remove the head, but only after investigating the cause.... compression test, leakdown test, do this first, stick to the basics. Could be some funny shit happening with the fuel.. all might be OK, there's nothing to indicate a major problem at this point. Repeat, do not get ahead of yourselves, do not remove head or split the cases until you identify cause.

There are metal bits in the oil no matter what..... finding shavings now doesn't mean they weren't there all along. You're jumping to conclusions thinking something major happened when it didn't. Shavings means crank/rod bearings and all kinds of destruction,..... to me, didn't happen. Prove it.

If not already mentioned, you might want to stick a borescope into the spark plug holes and have a look around...

garauld wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:10 pmIf not already mentioned, you might want to stick a borescope into the spark plug holes and have a look around...

There are reasonable USB borescopes (bring your own screen: tablet, laptop, phone). They are available on Amazon for ~US$35.00 or so. Get a camera cable that fits into spark plug holes, of course. You want one with LED illumination at the business end. Tape the end of the camera cable to a thin bendable wire, to guide the camera view.
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THERE IS METAL IN THE OIL! How is that not a major issue?! If there's metal in the oil, something is FUBAR.

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:52 pm THERE IS METAL IN THE OIL! How is that not a major issue?! If there's metal in the oil, something is FUBAR.

It depends on HOW MUCH metal is in the oil.

Have you ever changed the rear oil? There is a magnet in the drain plug to hold onto shavings. Some people put that same magnetic drain plug for the engine case oil as well...because they want the magnet to catch any stray bits floating around in the oil.

wheatonFJR wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:58 pm

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:52 pm THERE IS METAL IN THE OIL! How is that not a major issue?! If there's metal in the oil, something is FUBAR.

It depends on HOW MUCH metal is in the oil.

Have you ever changed the rear oil? There is a magnet in the drain plug to hold onto shavings. Some people put that same magnetic drain plug for the engine case oil as well...because they want the magnet to catch any stray bits floating around in the oil.

Funny, the magnet never, ever seems to pick up aluminum metal bits from the aluminum engine, doesn't pickup anything from the plain bearings and has never had even the slightest fuzz from the cylinder plating.

Well, THAT was a waste of a drain plug part!

wheatonFJR wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:58 pm

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:52 pm THERE IS METAL IN THE OIL! How is that not a major issue?! If there's metal in the oil, something is FUBAR.

It depends on HOW MUCH metal is in the oil.

Have you ever changed the rear oil? There is a magnet in the drain plug to hold onto shavings. Some people put that same magnetic drain plug for the engine case oil as well...because they want the magnet to catch any stray bits floating around in the oil.

Yeah, what 'Beam said. That aside, I know gears meshing will drop small metal bits. That's different than an engine turning at high RPM, and trying to make compression. I'm sure there's a small amount of metal in all drained oil. If there's enough to easily see, or there are "shavings" that's an issue. Hell, even "glittery" oil is only seen maybe during break in, or when an engine is getting ready to give it up.

Maybe I'm wrong, but when FYB said, "...metal in the oil," I pictured good sized shavings or chunks. God knows if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

There may be a little bit of VERY finely divided metal in the drained oil but that's what using an oil filter is all about! If it is big enough to see, the filter should be getting it all after one pass. If, on the other hand, there is a catastrophic failure the "chunks" might not ever make it to the filter before the engine quite.

If you want to see what has gone on since the last filter change, look in the filter not in the oil or in the sump.

Cut open the oil filter, pull the pleated filter media out, stretch it and have a good look.

Drop the oil sump to see what kind of sediment may be in there.

Don’t split the case yet as been mentioned above. Do the various tests, borescope the cylinders. Did you keep the drained oil, it had a chance to settle, check the sediments in the drain pan.

I agree, the fuel may be a result, not the smoking gun.

He said metal shavings, did he keep them? Did you look at them?

Silly thing - and please don’t shoot me, but the bike didn’t start, did you check the kill switch? the kickstand spring/kill switch?

Eliminate the silly things first.
Good luck.

Brodie

Brodie wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:09 am Cut open the oil filter, pull the pleated filter media out, stretch it and have a good look.

Drop the oil sump to see what kind of sediment may be in there.

Don’t split the case yet as been mentioned above. Do the various tests, borescope the cylinders. Did you keep the drained oil, it had a chance to settle, check the sediments in the drain pan.

I agree, the fuel may be a result, not the smoking gun.

He said metal shavings, did he keep them? Did you look at them?

Silly thing - and please don’t shoot me, but the bike didn’t start, did you check the kill switch? the kickstand spring/kill switch?

Eliminate the silly things first.
Good luck.

Brodie

I don't know if he kept the oil or the filter. I will ask. No interruption by kill switch or kickstand. He could hear the starter click.

I will repeat, don't tear down until cause is identified. Metal shavings if they are truly shavings, would mean bottom end destruction or aluminum hole punched into a piston by a valve... magnetic or not? Big or small? I doubt the bottom end destructed. Agree cut open the filter, turn the engine by hand (right timing cover), get a feel for what's going on.

Any new updates on this?

papaduke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:18 am Any new updates on this?

.... as opposed to old updates. (Damn. I've turned into a cynical, grouchy, asshole-y, old man.)