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raYzerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:06 pm Dude! Rule #1 is to zip tie the crank sprocket for CCT and shim changes....

Dude!

That's what he said he did.

raYzerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:06 pm Dude! Rule #1 is to zip tie the crank sprocket for CCT and shim changes.... Chain very loose when cam rolled out. OK, go for that ride and see what the horsepower verdict is..... that is going to tell you whether you have a valve timing problem. If it struggles to pull 7000 rpm in 3rd or 4th or takes too long to get there........ unfortunately, no other way to tell but pull the valve cover and right timing cover......... if anything is off it's likely one tooth off at the crankshaft sprocket.

I decided I needed to look. Got the coolant drained, valve cover and timing cover off. Will wait for daylight to have another go at it. Can't see the alignment marks.

90% sure it is cam timing. I think the intake and exhaust cams are OK with respect to each other. Makes sense since they were both zip-tied to the sprockets before the CCT was released. But it seems they are off one (I think) tooth from the crank. Can't really tell for sure if it is 1 or 2.

Can this be adjusted by loosening the CCT (and maybe the left chain guide) and moving the cams by hand in the necessary direction - skipping the tooth (teeth?) on the crank sprocket ? I would prefer to not remove the cam caps again.
Figure this should work because that's how they went off in the first place.

IIRC, slack in the chain has to be on the intake side - that is the side with the CCT.

I think the manual just says "adjust" but I will re-read the pertinent sections before I start.

You can finagle it at the crank but it's not particularly easy... CCT undone and dowel out of chain guide, maybe slide front guide up too, almost need 3 hands. Want to make it easier, remove the bolt holding the ignition trigger wheel and the wheel (it is keyed to only go on one way). You'll have to torque that up later (I'd use loctite), engine in gear, rear brake applied maybe. 32 ft.lbs. Last one I did, I used this method.

Memory bad... I have fought at the top end too, tricky getting enough chain slack to move it a tooth on the cam sprockets without removing cam caps. Again, CCT undone, maybe dowel out of chain guide. May have to move crank a tad CW or CCW depending.

Bottom line, if all timing marks line up and CCT released, should be good... manually rotate engine CW to recheck....

raYzerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:45 pm You can finagle it at the crank but it's not particularly easy... CCT undone and dowel out of chain guide, maybe slide front guide up too, almost need 3 hands. Want to make it easier, remove the bolt holding the ignition trigger wheel and the wheel (it is keyed to only go on one way). You'll have to torque that up later (I'd use loctite), engine in gear, rear brake applied maybe. 32 ft.lbs. Last one I did, I used this method.

Memory bad... I have fought at the top end too, tricky getting enough chain slack to move it a tooth on the cam sprockets without removing cam caps. Again, CCT undone, maybe dowel out of chain guide. May have to move crank a tad CW or CCW depending.

Bottom line, if all timing marks line up and CCT released, should be good... manually rotate engine CW to recheck....

I guess I'll play with it and see what works. Just figured if you can accidently skip a tooth with a CCT swap, you should be able to move the chain deliberately to retime. Probably easier to get it right removing the ignition trigger wheel, slipping the chain off, moving the cam sprockets and putting the chain back on but I think I would be more comfortable removing the cam caps if something has to come apart. Would zip tie again to make sure the intake and exhaust cams remain in time with respect to each other.

Did you have any trouble breaking the bolt loose? (I don't have an impact gun.) Blue Locktite if I go that route?

Yep, blue is good enough.
I broke it loose without impact gun, in gear should work (spark plugs in). Rear brake if you have to. Chain won't actually come off crank sprocket, but slack will drop down. Removing trigger wheel just gives you better access to slipping it around a tooth. Barely enough chain to do it, sometimes scratch your head how it all happened in the first place, but we know it happens..... You'll just have to see when you get there.
I would set cams to be perfect, see where crank timing mark is, then you know which direction to go.

raYzerman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:38 pm You'll just have to see when you get there.
I would set cams to be perfect, see where crank timing mark is, then you know which direction to go.

With the crank at the timing mark, the cam sprockets have to go clockwise. I'll try it the easy way first. Sometimes a wrench with a dead-blow hammer is a decent substitute for an impact wrench...

Otherwise, in fifth gear with brake applied should be pretty effective if the bolt isn't too tight or if they didn't use red Locktite.

Once done re-shimming, I always spin the motor by hand four revelations to ensure all timing marks mine up twice. Then put it back together. On one bike, I know this prevented me from grenading the motor as I had the timing so far off the motor was set in big time interference mode.

But I am surprised that this caused your symptoms.

Glad to read things are looking up.

If I remember correctly, 1 tooth either forward or backward means it runs bad. 2 teeth means pistons hit valves and grenades the motor. Go slow and double check your work.

If you can find something to jam between the cam sprockets to stop them from moving, it will make life much easier. Once you loosen tension on the chain, one or both of the cams will try to rotate due to valve spring pressure against a lobe.

My last valve adjust at 78,000 had 2 tight exh shims, and 6 tight intake. I got the intake done by just rotating out of the way, but when I went to do the exhaust, the chain jumped 2 teeth. That resulted in about 3 hours of fussing and fighting.

If anybody is wondering why so many were tight, at 50,000, I just changed 2 tight intakes, everything else was in spec although some were on the tight end of the low side. I also ride this thing like it's rented. I am not easy on it at all, have been known to tow a loaded trailer and a passenger at triple digits for long distances.

I think I got it but it took hours! Would take about an hour the next time.

Started easily, smooth idle, took throttle well, didn't bog when came to warm idle. Did a TBS and am slowly putting it back together.
Lessons learned for sure. Don't know if I will get it out for a test ride tonight or not.

Never had to "fix" a mis-timed motor before and I probably figured out every wrong way first.

I've BTDT, Ross.

I was so panic'd, I knew I mis-timed my buddy's bike and was afraid I couldn't put it back together. So we slept on it (like you did) and the next day (with HUGE help from Ray and Bob), it all came back together.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger, eh?

Hppants wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:53 pm That which does not kill us makes us stronger, eh?

I'm going to test that theory tonight with a very large glass of rum.

I was wondering for a time if I was ever going to get it. Don't trust the local Yamaha guy and I'm pretty stubborn anyway. Won't know for sure that it is right until I take it for a ride. Tomorrow is crappy weather but Saturday might be possible.

Hppants wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:53 pm I've BTDT, Ross.

I was so panic'd, I knew I mis-timed my buddy's bike and was afraid I couldn't put it back together. So we slept on it (like you did) and the next day (with HUGE help from Ray and Bob), it all came back together.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger, eh?

Except bears. Bears will kill you. Haha!

I assume you double checked your timing marks, Ross, and if they were good, then you're good. Already running better, I'm pretty sure you're OK now.

Story.... a friend 2hrs. away took his FJR to a shop to have second gear replaced, owner has an FJR. Bike ran and idled funny afterwards and the FI system was gone over at length, even swapped in a new ECU. Went to a second shop, couldn't identify the problem. Eventually, I said, just give it to me for a couple of days. As soon as I test rode it to see if it was developing full power, and found out it wasn't, I pretty well knew it was valve timing. So, I just went through what you went through.... off by one tooth at the crank, error at reassembly. Likely happened by not taking up the slack on the front side, which equates to about one tooth worth of chain. If they had spun it over CW after installing the CCT they should have found it.

So, the lesson is when doing a CCT or valve shim replace, set it at #1 TDC and you'll always know where you are. I'm real good at recognizing those arrows on the cam sprockets as I gunsight along the head. Backup is the holes in the cam line up with vertical lines cast on the face of #3 cam bearing cap if you can't find the marks. I always spin it over manually a couple of crank turns back to #1 TDC, check again.

Anyway, problem solved and good news.

HotRodZilla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:11 pm

Hppants wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:53 pm I've BTDT, Ross.

I was so panic'd, I knew I mis-timed my buddy's bike and was afraid I couldn't put it back together. So we slept on it (like you did) and the next day (with HUGE help from Ray and Bob), it all came back together.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger, eh?

Except bears. Bears will kill you. Haha!

I had the same problem. Once off idle it would die. Lots if fiddling but in the end the timing chain was off a tooth. Revved out well but would not idle. Never rode it that way.

raYzerman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:54 pm
Anyway, problem solved and good news.

Solved, as far as I know. Seems to run OK in the garage but I was too tired to finish reassembly and was too tired to ride safely anyway. Crappy weather tomorrow so no test ride until the weekend.

I was going to pull the throttle bodies and see how cruddy they are (since I already had everything apart). Not a critical service item but at 130,000 km, I thought I would have a look. Decided I have had enough drama for one week.
Will do the clutch and brake levers, rear brake pivot, final drive fluid, oil + filter, etc. I do brake and clutch hydraulics bleed every two years so it gets a pass for this season. Still have to get my "spare" Penske shock refurbished and thought I would look at the swingarm, driveshaft, U-joint and relay arm bearings while I was at it. Spring maintenance list seems to get longer every year. I have been trying to find the time to rework the wiring for accessories - the previous owner didn't do that very well although it all works.

I have the parts to refresh the forks but think I will hold off for awhile. Wouldn't mind finding a tech day for that to enlist some assistance but don't know if there will be any this year that I could attend. Anything of that sort going on in your neck of the woods? (- I doubt the US border will be open any time soon so can't make any New England events.) If we get COVID restrictions lifted, I am hoping for a ride to Winnipeg this summer to visit daughter, son-in-law, grandson and a new grandbaby (due in July).

I appreciate the help and suggestions!
Thanks

John d wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:58 pm I had the same problem. Once off idle it would die. Lots if fiddling but in the end the timing chain was off a tooth. Revved out well but would not idle. Never rode it that way.

Never had to re-time a motor before and it took a lot of mis-steps before I finally got it right (I think).
I did my first valve check on my own from "how to" posts. Same with the first time I had to do adjustments. I have done a few of each and this is the first time I ran into trouble. I THOUGHT I had it but the intake cam was a real bitch to get right. You think you have it and then everything moves when the CCT is engaged. Good thing I'm stubborn - makes up for inexperience (or maybe a lack of sufficient mechanical aptitude).

A good (if painful) learning experience. Most likely I won't have a slipped tooth the next time. But if it happens, it won't take me most of a day to put it right.

FJRoss wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:11 pm

John d wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:58 pm I had the same problem. Once off idle it would die. Lots if fiddling but in the end the timing chain was off a tooth. Revved out well but would not idle. Never rode it that way.

Never had to re-time a motor before and it took a lot of mis-steps before I finally got it right (I think).
I did my first valve check on my own from "how to" posts. Same with the first time I had to do adjustments. I have done a few of each and this is the first time I ran into trouble. I THOUGHT I had it but the intake cam was a real bitch to get right. You think you have it and then everything moves when the CCT is engaged. Good thing I'm stubborn - makes up for inexperience (or maybe a lack of sufficient mechanical aptitude).

A good (if painful) learning experience. Most likely I won't have a slipped tooth the next time. But if it happens, it won't take me most of a day to put it right.

I should have said once off fast idle but you understood anyway. That was my second time doing a valve adjust. The first time went smoothly. That damn CCT engagement had me going for awhile as well.