FJRiders.com

[Edit: I see BkerChuck was posting similar information while I was typing.]

silverback wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:09 pm ...I have never seen a spec that reads "reduce torque by 30% when threads are lubricated." Never. Not once...

Umm... It is a mystery why.

CAUTION -- Thread drift below, read at your personal risk
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To come at the problem a different direction, instead of torque values, talk about clamping force and not bolts in shear. Dry bolts in dry threads have a higher friction than lubricated bolts, the shoulder area of the bolt head adds more friction (where the wild card is washers of various material types). If there is any oxidation there is even higher friction. Using a torque wrench and a pressure gauge between two plates being clamped, torque a dry bolt to a specific value, say 50 lb/ft and read the pressure between the two plates. Repeat using a lubricated bolt. Note the clamping pressure difference. There are many tables which show torquing compensation based on different lubricants such as graphite, oil, grease as well as plating material. Anti-seize can contain Teflon, graphite and many types of fine metallic particles.

This table is just an example of dry vs. lubricated bolts, there are better and more comprehensive tables provided by anti-seize manufacturers.

BkerChuck wrote:Quick Google search and.....

https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/torque_s ... ations.pdf

I work in a hydraulic cylinder repair shop and we have to be really careful with this kind of stuff as a crane failing can be fatal. Our shop is ISO certified and we even have to be aware of expiration dates on loctite and anti seize.

Ok. So obviously A.S.T knows the loading and fatigue rating of an M12 bolt which attaches the engine to the frame on a FJR, because that kind of stuff is never proprietary.

Sorry. Just because some wonder lube place says I should reduce the torque from what the manufacturer says when using their product is not a convincing ... Or...you know ...an actual torque spec.

Do be careful with hydraulics. Last time I rebuilt a cylinder on a CAT dozer, it was very specific on how thread treatments and torques and assembly sequence were to be followed. 10,000 psi is nothing to trifle with.

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BkerChuck wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:34 pm Quick Google search and.....

https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/torque_s ... ations.pdf

I work in a hydraulic cylinder repair shop and we have to be really careful with this kind of stuff as a crane failing can be fatal. Our shop is ISO certified and we even have to be aware of expiration dates on loctite and anti seize.

The PDF text mentions the 25% wet bolt torque reduction ionbeam was mentioning...

Even more inane boring stuff...
-Also what Alan mentioned briefly, is that the real important value in a connection is how much bolt extension you are getting. That bolt/nut assembly resists the stretch and clamps down on the components being connected. However, unless you get into things such proprietary direct tension indicator washers (DTIs - go ahead, google it), measurement of bolt tension is an unlikely event. Therefore, manufacturers have tried to come up with a Tension/Torque relationship table. The harder it is to turn, the more you are extending the bolt length. That resistant to turning or torque is made easier when lubricant is in the threads...including metal anti-corrosive additives. Therefore, less effort (torque) is required to get the same amount of bolt extension. The people in the know have talked about a 25% reduction in effort being what you use.

Now what the kansas aero engineer is talking about is what the torques in the manuals are specifying...dry torque or wet torque?
-That...I have no friggin idea but would assume, being an idiot, that it would be dry torque. That is the crux of the little discussion.

wheatonFJR wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:20 pm

BkerChuck wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:34 pm Quick Google search and.....

https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/torque_s ... ations.pdf

I work in a hydraulic cylinder repair shop and we have to be really careful with this kind of stuff as a crane failing can be fatal. Our shop is ISO certified and we even have to be aware of expiration dates on loctite and anti seize.

The PDF text mentions the 25% wet bolt torque reduction ionbeam was mentioning...

There isn't a 'one seize size fits all' torque reduction value, but it is worth noting that a bolt with any kind of liquid on it will achieve the target clamping force with less torque than a dry bolt.

Much of an ion implanter is made from machined aluminum parts of various aluminum grades. Our mechanical assemblers quickly demonstrated that with a little loctite on a steel bolt going into an aluminum housing it works as a thread remover. Due to size, weight, motion and the need for much of the machine to maintain a 1.0E-8 torr vacuum level torquing was critical in our designs. Then we implemented a frequent calibration program for torque wrenches and the mechanics were given Torque 101.

Injecting a little levity into this textbook ...

"Anti-seize compounds" are fortified safe houses used by successful drug smugglers.

Uncle Hud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:47 pmInjecting a little levity into this textbook ...
"Anti-seize compounds" are fortified safe houses used by successful drug smugglers.

Beertender,

Cut this guy off, he's getting punchy . . .

Red wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:47 pm

Uncle Hud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:47 pmInjecting a little levity into this textbook ...
"Anti-seize compounds" are fortified safe houses used by successful drug smugglers.

Beertender,

Cut this guy off, he's getting punchy . . .

No seriously, he is this way ALL the time.

True anti-seize story here. I have a cousin who has more money than brains. He bought a 2001 GSXR 1000 and began to piss money into it at an alarming rate just because he could. Put carbon fiber wheels on it at $3,800 for 2 wheels, over $4,000 worth of titanium bolts. Paid $3,000 for the bike and then dropped almost $14,000 in it. He was working on it and I left to eat. I came back and he was gone but I looked at it and something didn't look right. I saw some blue painters tape on it which I didn't understand and I couldn't figure out what was going on.

Turns out that he finished putting something new on it and decided to start it in the garage and do a burnout. I guess there was a bolt or something close to the back tire. It snagged the bolt, jammed it into the tire, that spun around hit his brand new actual carbon fiber rear inner fender, broke that, shot the bolt out like a bullet. He took a step forward to recover from it all and stepped on anti-seize on the floor, his foot went out from under him, and the bike, along with him, fell over. Luckily the bike was saved when the upper fairing hit a chair he had sitting next to it, bending his fairing stay, and breaking his brand new fairing that had been on the bike only days.

That stuff is slippery

To follow up, he was stationed out of the country and only home for a couple of weeks a year. Once he broke all that stuff he had to leave. The next year came, he had ordered all new parts, he put them all on, put the bike on a lift, didn't strap it down, walked away and it fell off the lift and broke a bunch more stuff, including denting the gas tank.

More money than sense...but that HURT reading that.

I have to question what may be myth when it comes to vibration and FJR engine mount bolts. First, the torque on the 12mm ones is fairly light at 35 ft. lbs. perhaps due to their fine threads into aluminum. There are several engine mount bolts, if one thinks you are "straightening things out" by just loosening/retightening the two 12mm ones on each side.... um.. much bigger job than that. To do it right, you might have to remove the throttle bodies/maybe just air box, loosen the top ones, loosen the side and rear mounts, then snug up the 12mm ones, left side first as they are solid mounts, then go to the right side, loosen the pinch bolts, torque the 12mm ones (in sleeves), tighten the pinch bolts.... lots more, it's all in the FSM. The idea seems to be to have zero stress on the frame, the sleeves are adjustable to take into account frame width tolerances, but once bolted up, it's all one solid unit. It should have been done right at the factory, so I'm not sure how it cures vibration.
As for loctite on those, I used to do that in the early days, and I'll say it's OK if you take them out and reinstall every year. Scared myself too many times on mine and with others at tech days when they're nearly frozen in there. I cringe when I see the threads full of aluminum oxide. Definitely don't use an impact gun!! I won't use anything but anti-seize now, especially with aftermarket bolts that aren't appropriately plated.

silverback wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:56 pm ...CAT dozer, it was very specific on how thread treatments and torques and assembly sequence were to be followed...

Ya, use the proper sequence and torque or your nuts will fall off

This truly has been a fascinating technical reading, on how one can get torqued off. And in the world of aircraft this is VERY important information.

Now, here's reality.

When I was young and stupid I rode a 1975 kawasaki S1 250, 2 stroke, 3 cylinder, street bike. What a screaming machine. Fast, fun, cornered well (unlike it's bigger siblings) 115mph, and it would get there kwik...

But boy did it vibrate at full throttle, your hands and feet would be numb within a minute of hitting full throttle.

So one day I was out buzzing around, numb as usual, and I heard a metallic tink, tink, tang, tink that quickly faded behind me. Telling me that something had fallen off....

Hmm, I carefully check each system over as I rode as to not abruptly upset anything that might lock up the bike.
All systems good..

Pulled over, looked the bike over, still found no issues...

I believe I put another 15000 miles on the machine with no issues outside normal tune-up requirements, before i bought a bigger bike and parked the S1.
I stored It for 4 more years before I got back to it, and while I was degreasing it, I found out that the noise so long ago.... was my lower engine mounting bolt, approx 16" long and about 1/2" in diameter.(but in metric.)

So...
If it vibrates, locktite.
If it doesn't, anti-sieze.

I've have 70's and 80's yamaha's and anti-seized every bolt that I could. I didn't have and fastener issues.

I had a 1200 sportster(long story, bad idea, nuff said.)
Yep... not thinking I anti-seized a bunch of bolts on it...

After the 2nd part fell off within 10 miles I said bad words and booked it back to the garage for correction.
Cleaned out the threads with carb cleaner and reassembled with LOTS of loctite.

So... again..
If it vibrates, locktite.
If it doesn't, anti-sieze.

But when I start wrenching on aircraft, I now now correct torques for lubes bolts and correct plating for dissimilar metal joints. ... I knew i didn't like planes for a reason..
But joke's aside, I did seriously learn from that, and it's cool to know that info is available.

And.... they put more bolts in an engine the what you NEED.. some are just extras.... spares really...

MindWebs wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:29 am ...And.... they put more bolts in an engine the what you NEED.. some are just extras.... spares really...

I like to have my airplane engines really screwed up. Same idea as adding extra switches in the cockpit. Oh wait, those are called backup systems.

Engines vibrate, wheel assemblies and brake assemblies oscillate with the fork movement...

BTW, I am all for using all of the engine bolts specified, as well as axle bolts...

And just for reference, Loctite Threadlocker comes in different strengths. You don't have to use the "never take off" version.

Festus wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:05 pm And just for reference, Loctite Threadlocker comes in different strengths. You don't have to use the "never take off" version.

I like the gel versions of the various strengths..

CollingsBob wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:42 pm

Festus wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:05 pm And just for reference, Loctite Threadlocker comes in different strengths. You don't have to use the "never take off" version.

I like the gel versions of the various strengths..

Gel is better than the toothpaste.

I bought a bike off a guy that said he did all his own work. I didn't care to much as it was just gonna be a camp bike.

I started to care when every freekin' bolt and screw in that thing was slathered in red loctite. You shouldn't need a cold chisel and a metric sledge to change a headlight bulb!

Power plant and boiler guys use a lot of Anti-Seize.
Anti-Seize, and Loctite products in 10 flavors are on my bench at home.

Who the f@$k makes diff strength Loctites in the same color bottle??
Had to put a guy's Harley motor in an oven after he put the whole thing together in red.

Put my new 86 GSXR 750 in the family room at my old house with no garage, took the bike apart and Loctited it. My buddies talked shit, but later changed their minds. We went for a ride and I lost them. A long bolt that holds on the instrument cluster on his FZR100 fell out and lodged in the triple clamp at full lock on an off ramp. He managed to keep it up. After he pulled the underware out of his ass, he asked for loctite.

Don't put loctite on fasteners in plastic, the plastic will breakdown. Fairing nut plates leaking onto the plastic, leads to tastefully applied JB weld.

Having worked in a Hydrofluoric Acid Plant for several years I became a loyal follower of Anti-Seize Compound. Or NevrSeize. We used a LOT of that stuff and if we didn't it cost us dearly.

Y'all can argue over torque values all you want, I will just sit out of that discussion.

I will issue a Serious Warning to the OP:

Be Careful! One small can of that crap could paint the entire Pacific Fleet. A gallon of it could coat the entire Northern Hemisphere.

Never, ever start a NevrSeize Battle with a co-worker. Everyone loses. Coating the inside of a hardhat sweatband, a little dab under the doorhandles on a vehicle and soon everyone has it everywhere.