FJRiders.com

OldButNotDead wrote:

HotRodZilla wrote:If you can buy a $14,000 bike, but are too cheap to spend $100 on a legal service manual, that says something about you.

You have no idea or does anyone else...What I do know is that this is about as close to a personal attack as you can get....Maybe you should apologize and disappear...

I suspect there are a lot of people in his world that pisses him off. And, I bet it is reciprocated.



I sure see a © copyright and statement about use and I'm not a lawyer. I have seen pages from the Hi DEF manual and they are exact reproductions from the FSM and there is no statement of permission to use. If your world says that this is OK then go for it.

I went back and read Rule 1:

1. Please respect the other forum members, administrators and moderators. Attacks of a personal nature are not allowed. Although you may disagree with statements made by other forum members, please refrain from using profane, insulting or derogatory language, ethnic or racial slurs. Friendly 'banter' is exempt. Indicating humor with the appropriate emoticons might keep someone from getting upset or insulted.

OldButNotDead - While HRZ does disagree with you, I do not see his response as a violation of this rule...he did not attack you personally, he attacked the questionable information you posted. This forum is a "pull up your pants and act like adults forum", not a happy shiny people forum. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion and calls you out on it does not mean they are personally attacking you. This is my view....If others disagree, I am sure they will be along shortly to let us all know.

HotRodZilla / Bounce - I'm going to turn this into a conversation as I am curious of your opinion on my situation.....I own TWO paper copies (originals from Yamaha) of the Factory Service Manual and a digital copy from undisclosed sources. Do you think it's reasonable (not asking for legal opinion and not questioning their right to the copyright) for me to have a digital copy backup of my bought and paid for legitimate copies?

ionbeam wrote:

I sure see a © copyright and statement about use and I'm not a lawyer. I have seen pages from the Hi DEF manual and they are exact reproductions from the FSM and there is no statement of permission to use. If your world says that this is OK then go for it.

I am still waiting to hear their response with regard to my question (yes, I did contact the suppler of this manual and ask if they had legal right to produce and sell it) but the copyright states that it can be copied "with written permission".....maybe this seller has that permission. I figure if he does he will respond to let me know.

Here is a letter I sent to Tech Spark earlier this year. Their reply is babble that they feel allows and justifies selling what they do because they don't call it a "factory service manual" even though it is an exact copy/duplication of Yamaha's FSM with the omission of the opening and closing pages that indicate the manual is protected.

> From: sales@techsparkstudio.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
> To: am_boyd@hotmail.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
> Subject: RE: Enquiry Alan
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:33:25 -0400
>
> We currently do not sell "factory service manuals" on this site. The software listed is in no way affiliated with or sponsored by any manufacturers listed on the site. The logos and the marks of the manufacturers are registered trademarks of their respective owners. The use of various names, descriptions and/or numbers are used in applications and descriptions for reference purposes only. Their use in no way denotes or infers a direct connection with this software and any vehicle manufacturer or their authorized agencies. Use of various companies’ names and product lines within this software exists only for descriptive and informational purposes and does not infer any direct connection between the software and these companies.
> Jamie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan [mailto:am_boyd@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 11:04 AM
> To: sales@techsparkstudio.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
> Subject: Enquiry Alan
>
> We have had some activity from members sharing you as a source for
> discounted, factory service manuals.
>
> Because we are always concerned about being a good "partner" with the
> community we have established a policy that prevents anyone from helping
> those folks who have been selling digital copies of factory Yamaha
> manuals because, to the best of our knowledge, Yamaha has not authorized
> the sale to non-dealerships.
>
> What I am trying to ascertain is if this is a Yamaha authorized product
> so that we can continue to support the public posting of it as a source.
> With our high visibility to Yamaha and the community at large, we can't
> risk running into problems with protected Intellectual Property or
> Copyrighted material.
>
> Will you please confirm that these products are not going to land us in
> hot water with Yamaha?
>
> Thanks in advance. I'd much rather contact you directly than ask Yamaha
> and possibly create an issue between you and them.
>

Remember the last time someone asked a seller of what they had was a legal copy? I think it was on FJRForum. Whoever it was sent a long email asking questions about legality. The sellers response was simply, "No."

So, Yamaha's work is copyrighted. Period. Have all of us probably violated that in some way? Probably yes, but advertising it is not a good idea and as adults we should know that. It has been my experience that people who throw a hissy fit when called out know they are wrong and are just looking to displace blame. Imagine that!

HI DEF blatantly says:

This is not a fuzzy scan like many sell, it is a crystal clear manual from the original electronic source!
This is the genuine OE factory manual, the same one your local dealer uses.

clocklaw wrote: I spent 45 minutes on the phone with them recently and they eventually said I would have to mail in my issue in writing....so I would recommend you forgo the phone call and just write them to ask.

As for the intended direction of your conversation, I have seen aftermarket manuals made for vehicles in the past, maybe his is not a Yamaha manual??? I don't know if they are legit or not....but here is the website, I would like to know if they are. http://manuals4mechanics.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I tried to send them the following:

I wanted to confirm if this factory service manual (in digital form) has been authorized for sale so I don't run up against Yamaha's lawyers. I help administer an FJR forum and I need to know before I make your offerings shared on the forum.

An individual might slip by unnoticed by Yamaha but not a forum. I'd rather ask you instead of asking Yamaha and bringing you to their attention.

In short: Is this digital document (C) of Yamaha? Does Yamaha OK it's sale to the public?

Their submission form broke (the service it links to hasn't been properly coded or their subscription to the service wasn't renewed) and I didn't see any other way to contact them. Hmmm.

It was similar to the question referenced earlier in the thread. While the previous reply was longer than "no" it meant the same when they sent "negative".

As for posting my personal opinion on unauthorized digital media: no thanks.

[/quote] I tried to send them the following:

I wanted to confirm if this factory service manual (in digital form) has been authorized for sale so I don't run up against Yamaha's lawyers. I help administer an FJR forum and I need to know before I make your offerings shared on the forum.

An individual might slip by unnoticed by Yamaha but not a forum. I'd rather ask you instead of asking Yamaha and bringing you to their attention.

In short: Is this digital document (C) of Yamaha? Does Yamaha OK it's sale to the public?

Their submission form broke (the service it links to hasn't been properly coded or their subscription to the service wasn't renewed) and I didn't see any other way to contact them. Hmmm.

It was similar to the question referenced earlier in the thread. While the previous reply was longer than "no" it meant the same when they sent "negative".

As for posting my personal opinion on unauthorized digital media: no thanks.[/quote]

In looking at their site, it doesn't appear to have been updated since maybe 2011 (copyright at bottom of page, "New Arrivals" listed for 2011 CanAm models). Looking through the Yamaha manuals, it doesn't appear there is anything newer than 2010. If the site is abandoned, that would explain why you couldn't contact them through it. Just guessing though.

You can believe this or put it where the grass doesn't grow, but that Copyright you are displaying marked in 2002 by Yamaha doesn't mean a thing. Talk to a real, live lawyer who knows Copyrights, I have when researching copyrighting our data. It has to be registered. If it was registered in 2002 and the item changed in 2003 it has to be registered again in 2003. Every year it is produced with changes it has to be re-registered. Damages for copyright infringement are extremely hard to come by, so it is not worth the effort in many cases to even try.

Now for another comment made by "the" moron. They said Yamaha could get mad at the site. First, why would an FJR site actually worry about Yamaha getting mad at them. Yamaha worries from a marketing standpoint when a user site gets mad at them. Name one major internet site that has been shut down by a motorcycle company, any motorcycle company. Both Amazon and eBay sell and advertise these products and similar products. Anyone know of one suit against them for facilitating copyright infringement?

This may be asking wayyyyy too much, but apply some common sense. Do you actually believe just listing a product on ebay or Amazon constitutes facilitating anything???? This was blown way out of proportion.

Ooooh, was that name calling I detected? Seems the thin skinned sure like to violate their own rules and try to fire back.

FWIW, I only ever said your actions said something about you. Never even tried to imply what that was, but your guilty conscience got the best of you and hurt your feelers. No biggie, and I will not resort to name calling. Do whatever makes you happy. You are right that this shouldn't be a very big deal, but you sure are doing a lot of typing to rationalize your decisions.

Out!

HotRodZilla wrote:Ooooh, was that name calling I detected? Seems the thin skinned sure like to violate their own rules and try to fire back.

FWIW, I only ever said your actions said something about you. Never even tried to imply what that was, but your guilty conscience got the best of you and hurt your feelers. No biggie, and I will not resort to name calling. Do whatever makes you happy. You are right that this shouldn't be a very big deal, but you sure are doing a lot of typing to rationalize your decisions.

Out!

+1, Gunny; "Me Thinks He Doth Protest Too Much" as William Shakespeare said, or "A Load of Bullshit" as Papa Chuy Viejo would say! jes' sayin' and nuff said, ese!

At least one of the morons took the time to post a copyright from their paper FSM. If the insulted had checked any other paper FSM they would see that the worthless copyright has been updated every year, even though it's worthless.

Also, one moron took the time to write to a company that was selling direct scans of the Yamaha FSM and ask if they had written permission to use the content for their sales. It's easier to work when one has direct information.

It must be hard going through life having to belligerently and bellicosely defend your honor on the internet. It's tough to be a majority of one against everyone else who are wrong.

4...3...2...1...



Now we will see what one of the posters in this thread is really made of.....

Funny, only one person on this thread has discussed this subject with a lawyer. Hmmmmm

Good one Alan.. Seems one of the morons didn't "do" his due diligence.

But he's an argumentative SOB anyway.

Cool now I'm in!

Does this mean I have to quit watching full TV shows on YouTube?

No Doug. You can still watch porn Marty produced, he paid fees and shit ya know.

Ya know all the registered copyrights are on copyright.gov. You might be surprised what you "don't" find.

OldButNotDead wrote:Ya know all the registered copyrights are on copyright.gov. You might be surprised what you "don't" find.

OldButNotDead wrote:You can believe this or put it where the grass doesn't grow, but that Copyright you are displaying marked in 2002 by Yamaha doesn't mean a thing. Talk to a real, live lawyer who knows Copyrights, I have when researching copyrighting our data. It has to be registered. If it was registered in 2002 and the item changed in 2003 it has to be registered again in 2003. Every year it is produced with changes it has to be re-registered. Damages for copyright infringement are extremely hard to come by, so it is not worth the effort in many cases to even try.

It would seem that you are mixing together the pre-1976 laws of Statutory and Common copyrights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright ... of_America" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Before the 1976 Copyright Act, copyright protection was provided by a dual system under both federal and state laws. Federal law provided "statutory copyright" and the laws of each state provided "common law copyright." Roughly speaking, the old "statutory copyright" protected works that were registered and the old "common-law copyright" protected unregistered works.

Post-1976 those laws changed.

Now, copyright is assigned automatically when the work is created (and by extension, edited/updated). Registration can be done and makes legal prosecution easier but it's not required. Certainly not indefensible. It would also be easy to assume that a global company like Yamaha would have a legion on lawyers for whom registry would be routine or have enough lower-echelon staff to send scurrying to typewriters or court for the exceptions.

While copyright in the United States automatically attaches upon the creation of an original work of authorship, registration with the Copyright Office puts a copyright holder in a better position if litigation arises over the copyright.

I personally know the owner of a little 2-man shop who is in talks with Honda Corp. because he used "HOND" as part of his repair shop's name. Technically a trademark issue but it serves to make the point that international corporations do pay attention and take action for some of the smallest things.