Brake fluid flush or Old brake pads??

[Steel_Gin]

Before getting out for the first ride of the season I flushed the brake and clutch fluid. After doing that I took it out for a short spin around the block and I thought the rear brake goes down a long way. It worked but just a lot of travel and seemed like it didn't grab on like it did last year......keep in mind it has been several months since my last ride. Since brake fluid isn't very expensive I'm thinking about flushing the rear system again just to make sure no air got in to the line. (I have speed bleeders) So here is my question, how many pumps of the brake should it take until the old fluid is pumped out of the front bleeder? Once the front is done how many pumps for the back?

When ever my tire is changed the mechanic tells me the the brake pads are fine. What is also running through my head is I have 50,000 miles on the bike and it still has the OEM pads. I'm used to seeing about 40,000 miles on my car before the brake pads need to be changed, is 50K on the bike over the top even if you aren't an aggressive rider? My plan B is to get new pads for the rear system. (front & back)

[Viper_Dad]

I just flushed everything on my '08 before I sold it. My rear brake was mushy before but solid after. With 37K miles my rear pads were 5/32" and I believe they were original. Start with the obvious: Did you follow the service manual, paying close attention to the order in which you bled the brakes (since it has the Unified Braking System)? Did you keep the rear brake fluid reservoir (behind the right side panel) topped off? Did you bleed them until no more air came out? I will say my rear brake had the most air in it and the improvement was phenomenal afterwards.

[wheatonFJR]

Remove the rear wheel and check the amount of pad wear. replace if necessary

Bleed fluid until new clean fluid starts coming out of the brake hose instead of the old nasty yellow stuff.

[FJRoss]

Definitely bleed until clear fluid. That said, neither old fluid or worn brake pads will make much difference in terms of pedal travel. And will only have a detrimental effect on stopping power if the pads or rotors are dirty or glazed. Brake fade can happen as brakes get hot as a function of absorbed water boiling out of contaminated fluid but not unless brakes are pretty hot.

Edit to add: Spongy pedal is most likely due to a fugitive bubble somewhere. No idea about the number of pumps needed, just so that the fluid coming out is clear and completely free of bubbles. Don't know about Speed Bleeders, I haven't used them.

[raYzerman]

What Wheatie said. Just talking rears here for the moment... Mileage doesn't matter as we all use our rear brakes differently it seems. Replace the pads when paper thin (the book says .03" min.). Excess travel most likely says there's air in there. Bleed the furthest from the master cylinder first, right front in this case. Rear next. Cycle the ABS to clear it of old fluid in the ABS circuit, bleed again, this time only the rear is necessary.

Of course, fronts should be flushed/bled at the same time, and again after the ABS is cycled, this time only one front, pick one.

To cycle the ABS, find the diagnostic connector next to the battery, jumper the sky blue and black terminals, hold both front and rear brakes, turn on the ignition. Repeat if desired. Alan (Ionbeam) has a nicely written procedure for all that.
http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.ph ... ntry834610

[Steel_Gin]

Thanks for the info. Since I bled the brakes already the fluid is nice and clean now, so knowing for sure the "old" stuff is out now is a bit harder. Do you think ten pumps would do it for the front and the same amount for the back? Hind sight being 20/20 I wish I had counted when I did it the first time.

When I bled it the first time I did keep a close eye on the reservoir and filled it when it would get to the low mark. I bled the front first then the back, I didn't jump the ABS. I'll look over those steps and give it a try.

[silverback]

Does the Gen3 have the same diagnostic connector as the Gen2? Is the procedure for flushing and bleeding the brakes similar between the two?

As an aside, is there a good resource for Gen 3 service manuals? I haven't needed one yet, but I think it would save me asking questions like this.

[raYzerman]

All the same.........

[wheatonFJR]

...
As an aside, is there a good resource for Gen 3 service manuals? I haven't needed one yet, but I think it would save me asking questions like this.

Mama Yamaha.

[FJRoss]

As an aside, is there a good resource for Gen 3 service manuals? I haven't needed one yet, but I think it would save me asking questions like this.

The service manual is useful to tell you how to do the things that you already know need to be done. It is less useful as a tool to teach you about what needs doing. The diagnostic stuff is helpful at some levels. It also helps enormously to know when to follow their procedures and when (frequently) shortcuts can be taken!

This forum, as well as the "other" one, are pretty good places to start when it comes to technical stuff. The collective experience and "wisdom" of many of the members here is invaluable. You may need the Factory Service Manual (FSM) to get stuff done but you will want to start here for help with diagnosis and learn from the experience of those who have "been there, done that"... There are some excellent Yamaha service departments out there too (and some other ones) but they all seem to be unreasonable in that they expect to be paid for fixing your problems! If you haven't been to a "Tech Day", try to get to one.

Note: MANY motorcycle specific (or other) forums are frighteningly bad with respect to mechanical and maintenance advice - the FJR community seems to be far better than most!

[silverback]

As an aside, is there a good resource for Gen 3 service manuals? I haven't needed one yet, but I think it would save me asking questions like this.

The service manual is useful to tell you how to do the things that you already know need to be done. It is less useful as a tool to teach you about what needs doing. The diagnostic stuff is helpful at some levels. It also helps enormously to know when to follow their procedures and when (frequently) shortcuts can be taken!

This forum, as well as the "other" one, are pretty good places to start when it comes to technical stuff. The collective experience and "wisdom" of many of the members here is invaluable. You may need the Factory Service Manual (FSM) to get stuff done but you will want to start here for help with diagnosis and learn from the experience of those who have "been there, done that"... There are some excellent Yamaha service departments out there too (and some other ones) but they all seem to be unreasonable in that they expect to be paid for fixing your problems! If you haven't been to a "Tech Day", try to get to one.

Note: MANY motorcycle specific (or other) forums are frighteningly bad with respect to mechanical and maintenance advice - the FJR community seems to be far better than most!

I spent enough years as an auto tech to know the manuals are great for torque specs and wiring diagrams. Also code definitions and criteria can be helpful. Things like how to enter the ABS diag mode and how to push the pistons out to do a brake bleed properly are nice.

As far as diagnostics, most manuals are worthless. Did you check for power? Did you check for ground? R&R the PCM. (The door handle is still broken though)

I would like to go to a tech day, but it seems Kansas is more than a weekend trip to them all and if I am going to burn ETO, I'd rather it be in the twisties.

[HotRodZilla]

I don't remember having to take off the rear wheel to change my rear brake pads. I can say that none of us will have any idea how many pumps will get you straight. I'd buy a new bottle and plan on using most of it. If half-way through, the brakes are still spongy and you've cycled the ABS, I'd suggest you find a way to tie that brake lever down for a day or two, to help any trapped air move.

Some people have had a Hellavua time getting air out if the rear system. If none of that works, you may have to reverse flush them. A few have had to go to a dealer where they should be able to flush backwards with good pressure.

[raYzerman]

Right Zilla, you can change the pads without the wheel coming off.

I read about all these issues with ABS and air in the rear... so, how to fix and prevent.... the ABS fluid circuitry adds complexity to what is otherwise a simple system, everything has to go through the pump block first. Air can (most of the time not) get trapped in the ABS pump area, maybe because it's higher, then fluid has to go down again to the proportioning and metering valve, then back up to the steering head, then down to the front calipers. A good flow of fluid should push it out (at first open that bleeder up bigger). Reverse bleeding may help, but shouldn't have to. Some have found no flow of fluid in the line from pump to proportioning or metering valve, blocked line, there or upstream (hard pedal, won't move).

What I've had to do in a couple of cases, loosen the fittings at the pump or prop valve and let the air out. Had a hell of a time when I replaced one guys pump, but 99.9% of the time this should not be necessary.

Prevention - Ignore completely the 2 year Yammy (and others) fluid flush frequency, do it annually and cycle the ABS (most important prior to '08). This keeps fresher fluid in the entire system, nothing will gum up in those internal ABS pump circuits. Don't forget to do the clutch too. You'll have far less problems, guaranteed. Freshest when done in the beginning of the season, IMHO.

As for deang's issue, I'd do another bleed and see if it's fixed. I can't tell you how much to pump until new fluid comes through... but likely a half reservoir will be plenty. More if it's dirty, but he's got fresh in there already (with air in it). Yes to tie the brake lever down, overnight should do it. Works better for the front where the reservoir is highest point... in the rear, it may consolidate the air in one bubble which may be easier to move through the system, so I'd bleed again after doing that on the rear.

[rbentnail]

To cycle the ABS, find the diagnostic connector next to the battery, jumper the sky blue and black terminals, hold both front and rear brakes, turn on the ignition. Repeat if desired. Alan (Ionbeam) has a nicely written procedure for all that.
http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.ph ... ntry834610

I just did this and again, it is NOT as you describe. It is NOT the Sky Blue wire, it is the light blue/brown dot wire. If the plain sky blue and black are connected nothing happens.

Pictures here of connector location and using a simple alligator clip to jump together -> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b4u2kjtylkzz ... ENiDa?dl=0

[philharmonic]

Thanks for the info. Since I bled the brakes already the fluid is nice and clean now, so knowing for sure the "old" stuff is out now is a bit harder. Do you think ten pumps would do it for the front and the same amount for the back? Hind sight being 20/20 I wish I had counted when I did it the first time.

When I bled it the first time I did keep a close eye on the reservoir and filled it when it would get to the low mark. I bled the front first then the back, I didn't jump the ABS. I'll look over those steps and give it a try.

They used to sell different color brake fluid and you could alternate them to be sure you had everything flushed. For some reason the DOT nixed the colorful brake fluid. Ticked me off, but I am sure {rolls eyes} they had a good reason.

[Steel_Gin]

Thanks for the info. Since I bled the brakes already the fluid is nice and clean now, so knowing for sure the "old" stuff is out now is a bit harder. Do you think ten pumps would do it for the front and the same amount for the back? Hind sight being 20/20 I wish I had counted when I did it the first time.

When I bled it the first time I did keep a close eye on the reservoir and filled it when it would get to the low mark. I bled the front first then the back, I didn't jump the ABS. I'll look over those steps and give it a try.

They used to sell different color brake fluid and you could alternate them to be sure you had everything flushed. For some reason the DOT nixed the colorful brake fluid. Ticked me off, but I am sure {rolls eyes} they had a good reason.

Thought of finding colored DOT4, it is made but nothing close by me to pickup last night.

I did bleed them again last night, even with the speed bleeders I still opened and closed with a wrench to eliminate them being the issue. Did 12 pumps on the front bleeder, letting the reservoir go down to the low mark before refilling. Repeated that on the back bleeder. Kept a very close eye on the tube and saw no air come out.

I will get what I need tonight to jump the ABS then do that when I get home, after the jump attach a weight to the brake pedal overnight and bleed again.

Thanks for all or your suggestions!! I'll keep you posted how it turns out.

[Steel_Gin]

To cycle the ABS, find the diagnostic connector next to the battery, jumper the sky blue and black terminals, hold both front and rear brakes, turn on the ignition. Repeat if desired. Alan (Ionbeam) has a nicely written procedure for all that.
http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.ph ... ntry834610

I just did this and again, it is NOT as you describe. It is NOT the Sky Blue wire, it is the light blue/brown dot wire. If the plain sky blue and black are connected nothing happens.

Pictures here of connector location and using a simple alligator clip to jump together -> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b4u2kjtylkzz ... ENiDa?dl=0

Thanks for the pictures!! I'll be using these when I do the jump.

[FJRPittsburgh]

"Thought of finding colored DOT4, it is made but nothing close by me to pickup last night."

I had some DOT 4 with a higher boiling point that I took to WNY Tech Day last year. It was very dark in color. I can't remember the name of it. raYzerman may be able to pass the name on to you. You could use it one time and replace with the clear stuff the next time. And so on......

[raYzerman]

Russ, made me look!! You are correct for your bike but let's clarify.
Gen1 and 2006 wiring diagrams show Sb=Sky Blue, B=Black, Lg= Light green, G/R = Green/Red. I could not get at my 2006 to verify.
2007 (your bike) appears to have 2 sky blue, one has the tracer dot (I don't have a 2007 manual for the official colour(possibly White but looks silverish). Use the one with tracer as you point out. I was not aware '07 had 2 sky blues.
Gen3 manual only has a coloured diagram, but see photo of 2014. Looks like Sb/w = SkyBlue/White (which looks silverish), B = Black, L/R = Blue/Red, L/B = Blue/Black. Both those "L" blues are medium blue.

If any are looking at your wiring diagram, just identify the orientation of the connector and the wire with red, and all should be clear. I would not recommend jumping the red with anything, it's power from the ABS ECU and we shouldn't mess with that.

2006 ABS connector wiring



Gen 3 ABS connector wiring



Gen3 Connector photo

[Steel_Gin]

Made a jumper with some alligator clips and zip wire. ABS jump went as described, worked perfect. Did it twice because I have never done it before just to make sure all the old stuff is out.

Hung a 20 pound weight off the pedal with some bungees. 10 and 15 pounds the pedal came up a little when I let go, since it did that I assume that isn't too much pressure on the system?? I will do the bleed tomorrow when I get home from work.