Has Yamaha Gone Too Far with Electronic Suspension?

[Twigg]

Hi,

Do you mean Yamaha has paid too much attention to developing the electronic suspension at the expense of developing other parts of the bike?

jparry

Well yes. That was my point.

Easy and obvious fixes have been neglected while development has gone into fancy electronic systems.

[jparry]

Hi,

Do you mean Yamaha has paid too much attention to developing the electronic suspension at the expense of developing other parts of the bike?

jparry

Well yes. That was my point.

Easy and obvious fixes have been neglected while development has gone into fancy electronic systems.

I agree. Absolutely, and not least because the FJR's electronic suspension is more sound than fury.

That said, Yamaha doesn't have much choice. The FJR is a supremely competent motorcycle that has for the past several years been badly treated by the motorcycle magazines, whose good evaluations drive sales. The magazines are biased in favor of gee-whiz technology because they've found that reporting on gee-whiz technology sells magazines. So: the magazines, whose sales are driven by stories of gee-whiz technology, have damned the FJR with faint praise, calling it competent, and implying that it has fallen behind technologically.

If the FJR is to continue, Yamaha has to sell enough of them to make continued development worthwhile, and to sell enough of them it has to get better magazine ratings, and to get those it has to emphasize features that the magazines can report as gee-whiz so readers will buy the magazines. The theory is that that will get the FJR better ratings and thus drive sales.

Ultimately it's readers who are driving this. It's like the quote from Walt Kelly's "Pogo" comic strip: "We have seen the enemy, and he is us."

Yamaha's marketing has been incompetent. Take the auto-clutch as an example (and this is a failure of Yamaha's marketing, not its engineering): The auto-clutch could have been marketed as a quick-shifter, very gee-whiz; instead it was explained in pedestrian terms (Remember the web site saying, "It's not an automatic transmission, it's an automatic clutch?"). The magazines reported it in pedestrian terms, and it never caught on (here at least).

Virtually every FJR with a minimum of care can provide over 100,000 miles of stellar performance, while BMW riders can barely keep their over technologized bikes on the road, yet it's the BMWs that get the gee-whiz evaluations in the magazines.

So, to your point: Late to the game, and with sport-touring sales declining, the FJR now touts gee-whiz sounding electronic suspension and cornering lights at the expense of more-practical fixes, like mirrors that show more than your elbows.

From where I sit, if that sells more FJRs, that's a good thing.

jparry

[OldButNotDead]

jparry,
You have a LOT of validity in what you say. Since I have both and have had both FJR and BMW bikes for some time, plus have been an observer of MC marketing since the late 1960's, I believe I'm qualified to make some statement to put your post in perspective. In my opinion, Yamaha's marketing has sucked for as long I can remember. When FJR's pretty much swept the Iron Butt rally, how much did you see about that in the MC rags. Not much! Back in the 70's all of those rags had full page and cover advertisements by Yamaha, but when was the last time you saw an FJR being heavily advertised. Take all the shots you want at BMW, there is a reason for their success. BMWRA, BMWMOA, lots and lots of local clubs and events. Look at the history of the FJR. That pay before you even see one business in the early days had major sales impact into the early Gen II''s. Now look at Gen III. You have the A and the ES and the ES was not even available in adequate numbers until late. You have the 2016 amd 2017 with significant changes with 13,14,and 15's still on the floor. Kawasaki is running into the same problems. Last but not least, FJR repeat FJR buyers hang on to there bikes for a long time. Even buy older models because they know how good they are. The bells and whistles that Yamaha has put on the Gen III do not grab the attention of buyer of ST bikes like they do with sport bikes. Hell, the majority of FJR buyers get the ES because of ======, it's new, it's gotta be better, but in fact they don't have a clue.

[palerider]

jparry,
You have a LOT of validity in what you say. Since I have both and have had both FJR and BMW bikes for some time, plus have been an observer of MC marketing since the late 1960's, I believe I'm qualified to make some statement to put your post in perspective. In my opinion, Yamaha's marketing has sucked for as long I can remember. When FJR's pretty much swept the Iron Butt rally, how much did you see about that in the MC rags. Not much! Back in the 70's all of those rags had full page and cover advertisements by Yamaha, but when was the last time you saw an FJR being heavily advertised. Take all the shots you want at BMW, there is a reason for their success. BMWRA, BMWMOA, lots and lots of local clubs and events. Look at the history of the FJR. That pay before you even see one business in the early days had major sales impact into the early Gen II''s. Now look at Gen III. You have the A and the ES and the ES was not even available in adequate numbers until late. You have the 2016 amd 2017 with significant changes with 13,14,and 15's still on the floor. Kawasaki is running into the same problems. Last but not least, FJR repeat FJR buyers hang on to there bikes for a long time. Even buy older models because they know how good they are. The bells and whistles that Yamaha has put on the Gen III do not grab the attention of buyer of ST bikes like they do with sport bikes. Hell, the majority of FJR buyers get the ES because of ======, it's new, it's gotta be better, but in fact they don't have a clue.

Well, other than jparry's shot at BMW, I agree with both of you. I love the BMW's relentless and fearless cutting-edge technology, although I find their unwillingness to fix clear design failures like their final drive breakdowns disappointing, particularly when compared to Yamaha's stepping up and fixing problems when they are significant and clearly Yamaha's fault. I know jparry (I told him about this board), so I know (and he knows) he was exaggerating when he said that about BMW's being unreliable (maybe he'll, um, clarify ). It's long been true that more exotic technology often results in more glitches, but that's true of Yamaha (reference spiderbites) as well as BMW.

[Twigg]

There are things about BMW I like too, but their entire philosophy is different.

BMW built their legendary status because of a unique, and bulletproof, shaft drive. As a company they are, and always have been, innovative, and the entire motorcycling world has benefitted. Final drives, Canbus, unique suspensions ... BMW have done it all and they still build bikes their riders love.

I was surprised that, of all things, BMW had trouble with Final Drives ... and even more surprised they were so slow to fix it.

The price of innovation is that it costs a lot of money, and sometimes things go wrong, yet it is still to be applauded.

Yamaha have rarely done this, although their motorsport division is pretty successful, and their have been legendary bikes along the way. The RD350 and the FJR1300 are two of them.

What Yamaha do, probably better than anyone else, is apply well-proven technology in a package that works, at a price more folk can afford. Sometimes they get it absolutely spot on, like with the wonderful 1300cc V4 engine, a motor so good it went into bikes spanning 25 years .... and could have been used for the FJR although the engine we do have is pretty damned good.

[OldButNotDead]

Don't want to make this a BMW versus Yamaha discussion. This is an FJR forum and that argument will always lean heavily in the favor of the FJR. The point is if Yamaha wants to sell more FJR's they have to make a commitment to "SELLING MORE FJR's". Although most of us are addicts of the ST cool aid, that market share is not all that big compared to cruisers and sport bikes. The proof of why BMW does better in that market is in the number of bikes they sell at the prices they are capable of setting. It might be that when Yamaha adds bells and whistles that it is targeting a group that doesn't understand bells and whistles. It also may be their choice of bells and whistles aren't the greatest.

[palerider]

^^^^^

What he said.

[jparry]

jparry,
You have a LOT of validity in what you say. Since I have both and have had both FJR and BMW bikes for some time, plus have been an observer of MC marketing since the late 1960's, I believe I'm qualified to make some statement to put your post in perspective. In my opinion, Yamaha's marketing has sucked for as long I can remember. When FJR's pretty much swept the Iron Butt rally, how much did you see about that in the MC rags. Not much! Back in the 70's all of those rags had full page and cover advertisements by Yamaha, but when was the last time you saw an FJR being heavily advertised. Take all the shots you want at BMW, there is a reason for their success. BMWRA, BMWMOA, lots and lots of local clubs and events. Look at the history of the FJR. That pay before you even see one business in the early days had major sales impact into the early Gen II''s. Now look at Gen III. You have the A and the ES and the ES was not even available in adequate numbers until late. You have the 2016 amd 2017 with significant changes with 13,14,and 15's still on the floor. Kawasaki is running into the same problems. Last but not least, FJR repeat FJR buyers hang on to there bikes for a long time. Even buy older models because they know how good they are. The bells and whistles that Yamaha has put on the Gen III do not grab the attention of buyer of ST bikes like they do with sport bikes. Hell, the majority of FJR buyers get the ES because of ======, it's new, it's gotta be better, but in fact they don't have a clue.

Well, other than jparry's shot at BMW, I agree with both of you. I love the BMW's relentless and fearless cutting-edge technology, although I find their unwillingness to fix clear design failures like their final drive breakdowns disappointing, particularly when compared to Yamaha's stepping up and fixing problems when they are significant and clearly Yamaha's fault. I know jparry (I told him about this board), so I know (and he knows) he was exaggerating when he said that about BMW's being unreliable (maybe he'll, um, clarify ). It's long been true that more exotic technology often results in more glitches, but that's true of Yamaha (reference spiderbites) as well as BMW.

Okay, so I exaggerated. A little. Okay, a lot. BMWs are terrific machines. There, I said it.

I still stand by my larger points: 1) Twigg is right; 2) the latest changes are mostly just pandering to the motorcycle magazines; and 3) that Yamaha's motorcycle marketing sucks.

jparry

[OldButNotDead]

I still stand by my larger points: 1) Twigg is right; 2) the latest changes are mostly just pandering to the motorcycle magazines; and 3) that Yamaha's motorcycle marketing sucks.
jparry

I think we are in total agreement.
Yamaha is not alone there. Take a look at the Kawasaki Concours. They built it for something like 12 years with one real change in the plastic. They did do some decent market research and came up with the C14 which they did make some changes since release. They, like Yamaha did NOT push those changes out to the market. Kawasaki didn't make changes to the original model because it sold at almost a constant rate per year and they didn't have to retool. Since those initial years where the C14 P.O.'ed the old time Connie riders, C14's have not experience any kind of climb in sales. IMO, for quite some time the C14 contributes a lot to FJR sales because it doesn't compare well to the FJR. Part of Yamaha's problem may be the FJR forums. IMO they think what a select bunch of yahoo's say is a substitute for market research.

[Twigg]

Part of Yamaha's problem may be the FJR forums. IMO they think what a select bunch of yahoo's say is a substitute for market research.

Steady on boys ... We can't blame Iggy for everything

[palerider]

Part of Yamaha's problem may be the FJR forums. IMO they think what a select bunch of yahoo's say is a substitute for market research.

Steady on boys ... We can't blame Iggy for everything

[raYzerman]

In my automotive career, got to hang out many times with the Sales and Marketing group, and let's just say they are in a world of their own. Of course, they have to sell their intended direction to the leadership and product development follows...... I'm not quite sure how it goes at Yamaha, but likely similar. If it were me, I'd have done it differently if I were them, but we're also talking a bit about hindsight being 20-20. Seems to me this big rush at the end of product cycle is a bit late. I would have brought in some of those features earlier (e.g., how long on EVERY motorcycle forum has cruise control been on a wish list for sport tourers... forever). Yamaha chose to be the lower MSRP producer, offer less (e.g., 1 year warranty instead of 3), get the lower price product into the consumer's hands and charge more for after sales stuff (Yammie parts are a tad more expensive)..... It is a business model many follow, but not what I would do.

BMW on the other hand brought in gadgets, way too expensive, and are a bit snobbish. But we need somebody to be them. Overly complicated bikes and service procedures..... total cost of ownership is too high especially if you need dealer service. Somebody needed to decide more about what the customer really wants and needs and what a typical sport touring customer will pay for. Honda, I think ST and Goldwing, almost had it, didn't finish it (overly heavy, undersprung, lack of features, dragged out the product too long). Yamaha and Kawi picked up the ball...... probably didn't go far enough soon enough because they too see the ST market shrinking rapidly.

Suzuki on the other hand, went cheap with mediocre low cost bikes that do many things well but fall a touch short... e.g., V-Strom. A good start for beginners, there are some great Suzukis, but you always want a little something more.

It is what it is. Sure, I'd like to think they read forums....... not sure they do. But, did one of them ever put out an owner/user survey to see what we really want... not to my knowledge or if they did, it was too general.

[Redfish]

If the question is whether the development cost of the ES took money and resources away from the development of the rest of the bike, then my answer is Absolutely Not. Yamaha, like everybody else buys the suspension from other companies. Yeah, the electronic stuff costs more. It does not cost so much that Yamaha could not afford to work on the rest of the bike.

We are not talking about Uncle Ralph who cannot afford to fix the window in his '78 Ford LTD because he only has enough money to fix the transmission. We are talking about the second largest manufacturer of motorcycles in the world.

[HotRodZilla]

If the question is whether the development cost of the ES took money and resources away from the development of the rest of the bike, then my answer is Absolutely Not. Yamaha, like everybody else buys the suspension from other companies. Yeah, the electronic stuff costs more. It does not cost so much that Yamaha could not afford to work on the rest of the bike.

We are not talking about Uncle Ralph who cannot afford to fix the window in his '78 Ford LTD because he only has enough money to fix the transmission. We are talking about the second largest manufacturer of motorcycles in the world.

And boats, and jetskis, and pianos, and electronic sound equipment...Yamaha is not hurting for money.

[palerider]

If the question is whether the development cost of the ES took money and resources away from the development of the rest of the bike, then my answer is Absolutely Not. Yamaha, like everybody else buys the suspension from other companies. Yeah, the electronic stuff costs more. It does not cost so much that Yamaha could not afford to work on the rest of the bike.

We are not talking about Uncle Ralph who cannot afford to fix the window in his '78 Ford LTD because he only has enough money to fix the transmission. We are talking about the second largest manufacturer of motorcycles in the world.

And boats, and jetskis, and pianos, and electronic sound equipment...Yamaha is not hurting for money.

Well, yes and no. In most large corporations, the separate corporate divisions have to support themselves. The music division may do well, but it doesn't provide resources to the motorsports division. Even within a division, models must pay their own way one way or another. Like the VMax, which doesn't sell many units, the FJR is a flagship bike for Yamaha, so, because it provides prestige, Yamaha may be willing to keep it going even if it doesn't earn the corporation a ton of money. Regardless of how well the company is doing overall though, sooner or later, as the ST market dwindles, that prestige will fade and the FJR will fade with it.

[Redfish]

Well Shit. If Yamaha can't afford to update it and it is no longer prestigious I don't want the damned thing anymore.

I will just have to forget about the multi-level heated grips, the traction control, the cruise control, the smoother engine, the updated fuel mapping, the two different engine maps, the improved headlights, the improved wind management, the improved heat management and all the other things that I thought Yamaha had spent R&D money on with the Gen3. This POS is for sale.

Harley Damn Davidson here I come.

[palerider]

Well Shit. If Yamaha can't afford to update it and it is no longer prestigious I don't want the damned thing anymore.

I will just have to forget about the multi-level heated grips, the traction control, the cruise control, the smoother engine, the updated fuel mapping, the two different engine maps, the improved headlights, the improved wind management, the improved heat management and all the other things that I thought Yamaha had spent R&D money on with the Gen3. This POS is for sale.

Harley Damn Davidson here I come.

Now THAT'S prestige. You can get your very own do-rag.

[HotRodZilla]

Well Shit. If Yamaha can't afford to update it and it is no longer prestigious I don't want the damned thing anymore.

I will just have to forget about the multi-level heated grips, the traction control, the cruise control, the smoother engine, the updated fuel mapping, the two different engine maps, the improved headlights, the improved wind management, the improved heat management and all the other things that I thought Yamaha had spent R&D money on with the Gen3. This POS is for sale.

Harley Damn Davidson here I come.

Now THAT'S prestige. You can get your very own do-rag.

Hey, RF, if you're gonna do that, you should sell your brain to science. If you're riding and HD, you won't need that pesky thing anymore.

[NTXFJR]

Dammit thats scary. You guys almost made sense there for a bit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[palerider]

Everything you need is here:

http://www.rostra.com/universal-afterma ... rostra.php

That has been fitted to my '05 for the last 30 000 miles. It has performed flawlessly

Twigg,

Which version of the Rostra did you buy? I can't figure out which one to order.