Gen III Handling - Opinions

[OldButNotDead]

I'm still gathering data but have found that the progressive springs on Gen III's are definitely different than Gen II's. That HAS TO affect handling. Also, on Gen I and Gen II's the rebound and compression adjusters were on separate fork tubes. They are both on one now. Don't have a clue what that does, but one would think it would have some impact. I've heard rumors that the rear springs were changed but have no numbers to substantiate that. I do feel some slight wallow in the rear end and a guy on the other forum had more that slight wallow. It will be a couple months before test flights begin again.

[OldButNotDead]

Posted this over on FJROwners site as well. Really interesting stuff.
Ok guys, I now have the answer to Gen III fork issues. In Gen I and II there is a damping cartridge in BOTH forks. There is only ONE damping cartridge in the Gen III right fork. Apparently this is where those marketing guys ARE winning out. Cuts the cost (and performance) of the entire fork package.

You can get a fork upgrade of both springs and one set of valves in the right fork. Traxxion is about $600 installed. This is an improvement over stock; however, Traxxion says they just can't flow enough fluid through one damper to get what would really do the job. AK20's get you to full forks again but for about $1,400. Ohlin has a cartridge too at around the same price. So does GP. Maybe there will be a run on Gen II forks in the bike parts black market.

I think this also solves the puzzle of why you don't see a left fork tube in Yamaha's parts catalog of an ES. Apparently there is a trend with anything sport touring oriented to do this same trick with forks.

[OldButNotDead]

Just finished installing an HP461 fully adjustable shock. It made a significant difference in "overall" handling. In addition I brought all fork adjustment to "normal" rather than harder settings for preload, compression and rebound.

[Queensland Ken]

On the ES, the right fork leg is the rebound compression damper, the left is the compression.
Both fork tubes are the same but the damper rods are of different design.
Both air gaps are the same, but one leg has a bit more fork oil.

It's not the best write up I've seen in a service manual.

[OldButNotDead]

On the ES, the right fork leg is the rebound compression damper, the left is the compression.
Both fork tubes are the same but the damper rods are of different design.
Both air gaps are the same, but one leg has a bit more fork oil.

It's not the best write up I've seen in a service manual.

You have that right about the manual. Thanks for the info on the ES setup, it's not easy to get a clear picture of what is going on on an ES.

I wish they would have left the A model forks alone on the Gen III. That is leave the design the same as Gen II. Modify valves, change spring rates, but leave the basic design alone. In theory the forks "should be" solid enough so that the right fork "should" be able to handle the rebound by itself, but that's hard for me to convince myself of. Putting both dampers in one fork and no damper in the other makes it even harder to believe. HOWEVER, and this just doesn't seem logical either, my new shock makes the entire bike feel better.

[Queensland Ken]

I've worked on "normal" forks, the ES or the AEE as it's called here, may be a bit daunting for me.
When I received the manual, the first thing was to look at the bushings, what bushings ..... lol

I'll just flush and change out the oil when it's due and hope nothing goes wrong.

Have to have a better look at my mates Gen 3A forks.

[OldButNotDead]

My concern is that Yamaha cut too many corners on the forks, both ES and A. Just means the aftermarket boys will be busy LOL.

[kieefjr]

Ok, I sense a little disgruntlement with the ES suspension.

I'm one to set things and leave them alone so I'm not too keen of the extra expense for the ES suspenders.
I'd almost rather upgrade through aftermarket in time.

So, being out of the FJR forum circle for a while do some of you regret the ES suspension or rather have had the A model?

[jagermeister]

Can anyone confirm that the Gen 3 fork springs fit Gen 2? Has as anyone swapped Gen 2 forks to Gen 3? On my '08, I inserted Sonic Springs, but don't know if the length and diameter changed in 2013.

I can't seem to get front and rear sag to match, unless the front preload is maxxed out. I think that's partly because the Gen3 rear spring is very heavy, and I have to keep it on Soft. Conversely, the fork springs' initial rate is relatively soft, so I have to max out the front preload to get sag measurement close to the rear.

Obviously, the compression and rebound will be a limitation, especially with the devolved Gen3's single-fork dampening. But, I want to get Sag correct, before addressing that.

[clocklaw]

Can anyone confirm that the Gen 3 fork springs fit Gen 2? Has as anyone swapped Gen 2 forks to Gen 3? On my '08, I inserted Sonic Springs, but don't know if the length and diameter changed in 2013.

I can't seem to get front and rear sag to match, unless the front preload is maxxed out. I think that's partly because the Gen3 rear spring is very heavy, and I have to keep it on Soft. Conversely, the fork springs' initial rate is relatively soft, so I have to max out the front preload to get sag measurement close to the rear.

Obviously, the compression and rebound will be a limitation, especially with the devolved Gen3's single-fork dampening. But, I want to get Sag correct, before addressing that.

I'm still riding my second Gen1 so I can't specifically answer your question, but I just wanted to say HEY JAGER!!! Good to see you back!

[OldButNotDead]

Can anyone confirm that the Gen 3 fork springs fit Gen 2? Has as anyone swapped Gen 2 forks to Gen 3? On my '08, I inserted Sonic Springs, but don't know if the length and diameter changed in 2013.

I can't seem to get front and rear sag to match, unless the front preload is maxxed out. I think that's partly because the Gen3 rear spring is very heavy, and I have to keep it on Soft. Conversely, the fork springs' initial rate is relatively soft, so I have to max out the front preload to get sag measurement close to the rear.

Obviously, the compression and rebound will be a limitation, especially with the devolved Gen3's single-fork dampening. But, I want to get Sag correct, before addressing that.

The springs could be the same but I'd do some checking with Traxxion, GP or Race Tech to confirm they are the same, not rely on advice from the forum.

As far as sag goes, they do not "have to be" the same. Sag is to get you in the ball park. Go for a ride and see how it feels.

[OldButNotDead]

I've been thinking about this post. Hope that didn't affect global warming LOL. First, IMO, the stock shock in all Gen's is "the" limiting factor for any suspension tuning. There are only two positions to set sag to and that is static sag, so you really don't adjust rider sag. If you go with the belief that front and rear sag should be the same, tying an improved fork sag to the fixed rear sag could be a mistake. The more I ride after replacing the stock shock with a fully adjustable HP the more I'm convinced that it not only improved the rear a bunch, but the front feels better too (a lot better). Although when I found out about the single fork damping I was highly PO'ed. I started thinking about AK20's and swapping with Gen II's. After replacing the shock, the more I believe it isn't as big deal as I first thought. I may just replace the fork springs after I put some more miles in the twisties on my new shock. Then again I just may leave it alone. I know this is sacrilege to old time straight rate guys, but on my 06 HP rising rate springs worked extremely well. Almost, but not quite as good as my AK20's. By pure luck I happened to get a great deal on my HP 461 fully adjustable shock, but I believe even an emulsion shock with just preload and rebound is better than the stock.

[wheatonFJR]

JAGER!!!!!!

[jagermeister]

I've been thinking about this post. Hope that didn't affect global warming LOL. First, IMO, the stock shock in all Gen's is "the" limiting factor for any suspension tuning. There are only two positions to set sag to and that is static sag, so you really don't adjust rider sag. If you go with the belief that front and rear sag should be the same, tying an improved fork sag to the fixed rear sag could be a mistake. The more I ride after replacing the stock shock with a fully adjustable HP the more I'm convinced that it not only improved the rear a bunch, but the front feels better too (a lot better). Although when I found out about the single fork damping I was highly PO'ed. I started thinking about AK20's and swapping with Gen II's. After replacing the shock, the more I believe it isn't as big deal as I first thought. I may just replace the fork springs after I put some more miles in the twisties on my new shock. Then again I just may leave it alone. I know this is sacrilege to old time straight rate guys, but on my 06 HP rising rate springs worked extremely well. Almost, but not quite as good as my AK20's. By pure luck I happened to get a great deal on my HP 461 fully adjustable shock, but I believe even an emulsion shock with just preload and rebound is better than the stock.

Yeah, the rear shock is definitely a worse offender than the forks - on both the Gen 2 and 3. I really miss the Ohlins YA-707 I had on the 2008.

Jeff Ashe taught me a couple of years ago that "it's all about balance". The front and rear have to work in concert. Taken to the extreme, that means that front and rear Sag should match. More importantly, the front's movement upsets the rear, and the rear's movement upsets the front. So, it's probable that a high-quality rear shock will also improve the forks' performance.

[OldButNotDead]

Both springs do have the same part number. It kinda sorta looks like maybe two different springs in the pic of the forks with two separate ID numbers 14 and 34 but when you check the part number itself they are the same. If you call Lee at Traxxion he knows those forks inside and out and can confirm.

All sag is intended to do is get the spring in the optimum area for spring performance. Another way of saying setting the initial preload correctly. Balance is what it is all about but getting a "stock" FJR to have equal sag front and rear is highly improbable unless all riders weigh the same and you run the same load. Matter of fact, since the rear only has two settings, forcing the front to operate in one of those two is IMO a big mistake. Having the same sag when it comes to static sag is one thing, but rider/dynamic sag is much different. Gen I and II both have straight rate springs but Gen III has dual rate. That complicates things even more. That's why IMO and some suspension guru's I've read say to set an initial sag then go ride. After riding, adjust the sag to where it feels best for you and the conditions. Basically sag winds up where it winds up, maybe front and rear are equal, maybe not. On my HP 461 it actually raises the rear some which changes rake and trail a tad. I also had to remove and adjust the spring to get sag into a better range. It came with a very low static sag (ran out of preload adjustment) and I had to back out the spring to get enough adjustment for a decent dynamic sag number. I did not measure the front and won't until I make a run from Walhalla, SC to Deals Gap. That will tell me if I have it tuned.

[dkjkwood]

My 15 handled like crap on the stock tires, switching to RP4 GTs made a huge difference.

[wheatonFJR]

Yeah, I don't know of any stock OEM tire that does real well. OEM are probably very cheap to produce.

[raYzerman]

It's been a while since I read this thread, so time for an update. I now have a season under my belt with the '14A, spent learning how to set it over my riding season/conditions I experienced. On the '07 I had a RaceTech setup front and rear, fully adjustable shock (950 lb. spring), 0.95 straight rate fork springs and gold valves. The Gen3A's have a "progressive type" rear shock (two-piece spring as prior Gens, but with a much better 976 lb. spring), 0.85/1.02 progressive fork springs, and as mentioned, rebound and compression are adjustable on the right fork only. Progressive means two or more spring rates within the same spring, which compress quickly in the first part of the travel, and firm up as the springs compress. I have no real experience with aftermarket progressive springs such as HyperPro, etc., and my hesitation to use them is they don't give you the spring rates.... but, I may give them a shot once I prod the HyperPro guys some more. I do find the progressive nature of the Gen3A suspension is actually pleasant once you get the damping dialed in..... not opposed to progressive, just need to try it. The approach seems to be a one-for-all kind of thing.

Some basic suspension talk, lots of sources out there, and I would encourage all to learn more about how suspension works... but this keeps it simple for starters..... http://www.promecha.com.au/springs_basics.htm

I have a draft of an FJR Suspension Matrix which does a side by side comparison of the OEM suspension (including ES), I will post up the draft once I clean up some details. The primary thing to do with suspension is determine if the springs you have support your weight adequately, not undersprung or oversprung. Next, you set the damping to control that spring going up and down over bumps and hollows and in the twisties. In my FJR experience, I talk to guys about suspensions at various meets and from comments on the forums..... I'm going to generalize, do not be offended... I find the majority do not know that much about suspension, many still have it on the OEM settings (mush), don't push in the twisties that hard so they're not testing it. Others know a few things, have read what others use for settings and try those. Suspension is an individual thing. You have to have the right springs, you have to dial in the damping for your riding style, and in my opinion, especially to handle hard twisties or emergency situations. You don't want mush. You also don't want too much damping..... it should be the least amount of damping that still gives you the control.

I too would not change any valving on the A's forks, and it seems better (whether it is or not) to have both forks the same like Gen1/2. Stock fork oil is ~5W (some say maybe thinner). I find both Gen A's are OK for my style, and I do push in the twisties, but I wouldn't call myself hard core that needs a race suspension. The downside of the Gen3A forks is the progressive springs allow too much dive for the first part of the travel (the 0.85 rate) for my weight (205 without gear). To compensate, I had to dial in the preload nearly all the way. Damping of course, tweaked as conditions were encountered... I recommend not using the OEM standard settings (~12 clicks out) as it is very little damping, dial them all in to 8 clicks out then tweak to your conditions.

I find the Gen3A shock to be quite good surprisingly, while others seem not to like it as much. It is definitely a real spring now, made for us heavier types, soaks up bumps really well, but for the twisties, got to dial the damping in to about 5-6 clicks (for me). I am not feeling any hurry to put the RaceTech shock on this bike, if that's any indication. I can see lightweight riders might think this is too much spring.

Other differences, I run a 190/55 rear tire. The spring already provides less sag so the bike rear ride height is good, but the 190 tire raises it another 1/4-3/8"..... turn in is great as the back end is able to sit higher. ES guys likely find theirs sits lower (more sag, weak rear spring), but you can improve that with the 190 tire (provided you're not inseam challenged).

About the HyperPro, I need to contact them again to push for specs on the fork springs. I am quite surprised they recommend 15W fork oil, that seems too thick to our normal thinking, and makes me wonder if they try to compensate for progressive springs by adding damping (which is what 15W oil will definitely do).

Anyway, more on suspension later once you see the matrix. Always interested in hearing your comments, issues.

Back on topic now........

[LittleJon]

I was reading through the suspension/spring part of this thread, thinking "where the hell is Ray?".

[OldButNotDead]

Ray,
The stock shock is not progressive. It is actually two separate straight rates that in one of the two positions, don't remember which, is just one spring and in the other is both springs. This is a crappy way to build a shock. Replacing the stock spring with a single spring like the HP progressive is better than stock but definitely not as good as a decent aftermarket. It is not a simple operation for the average guy either. (Keep in mind I did all of that on an 06). IMO, Yamaha screwed up the forks on the A models by cheaping out. In Gen I and II you had two forks working together but in Gen III damping is only on one fork. IMO, that isn't bad if all you do is change springs. If you want more out of your forks get cartridges for both. Another IMO, LOL, it isn't worth spending extra cash on the forks beyond a spring change. Keep in mind the fork springs are "dual" rate, not fully progressive like HP. I think I mentioned this before, putting on a good shock, made my 14A feel totally better with setting adjustments to the forks all that was required.
Rod