What did you do to your FJR today?

[FJRoss]

Debating whether to ride it a block to top off the tank for a long winter's nap. I live in hope for a few more days of 5°C (41°F) or higher before they get out the road salt. Once that happens, I'm done for the season unless we get a heavy rain to wash it away.
Rain today with a bit of snow later, quite cold the next two and rain (possibly mixed with some more snow) for a couple days after that. The snow won't accumulate but early in the season they tend to salt without much need. Next week, temperatures might go as high as 10°C (50°F) and I may have another opportunity to get out for a ride if they hold off on salting. End-of-season is definitely in sight.

[raYzerman]

The only real reason to fill it right up is so there is less fluctuation/breathing of air..... if it's parked in a dry place and the temperature doesn't flucutate, it doesn't need to be chock full..... dump in some isopropanol (a component of Seafoam) into your fave stabilizer and that will take care of a lot of water should there be any..... or just use a good dose of Seafoam..

[FJRoss]

The only real reason to fill it right up is so there is less fluctuation/breathing of air..... if it's parked in a dry place and the temperature doesn't flucutate, it doesn't need to be chock full..... dump in some isopropanol (a component of Seafoam) into your fave stabilizer and that will take care of a lot of water should there be any..... or just use a good dose of Seafoam..

That's why I fill completely. Bike is in an unheated garage and temperature fluctuates quite a bit as our winters are quite variable. Garage is humid as well since the car is parked there. "Breathing" due to expansion and contraction of the air above the fuel does bring in moisture-laden air. (While fuel expands and contracts with temperature changes, it is far less than the air.)

I generally use Stabil (or a generic) for winter storage although I don't think it is as critical as it used to be. Water has essentially no solubility (0.01% or so) in ethanol-free gas so any that condenses in the tank collects at the bottom where it can cause rust. Solubility of water is 50 times higher (~0.5%, depending on temperature) in dry E10, so absorbed water will dissolve in the fuel and not cause separation until the saturation point is reached. Something on the order of 125 mL (over 4 ounces) of water is required to saturate a tankful of dry E10 at room temperature - less when cold. (Isopropanol has the same effect as ethanol or methanol but possibly effective at lower concentrations - haven't seen good comparative data. On the other hand, you would never add it at the 10% concentration that ethanol is in your gas.)

In any case, I like to fill it pretty close to the top, but not to the absolute brim as I don't want an overflow due to expansion if we get a warm day. I add stabilizer because it makes me happy - not because I think it really has any critical effect.

I'm still hoping to get in a few more riding days but saddle time is drawing to an end for the season. Might be a couple of days next week if we don't get some snow (and road salt) before then.

I don't cover the bikes and just give the batteries a quick top-up for a couple of hours a couple of times between December and March with a 1 amp battery maintainer - neither bike has sufficient parasitic draw to require a tender running full time. Always ready to go if we get an unseasonable break in the weather (after sufficient rain to dilute the road salt).

I hate this time of year!

[fontanaman]

Updated my insurance policy to cover only theft. Riding season in the Spokane area is over.

[Toter]

Updated my insurance policy to cover only theft. Riding season in the Spokane area is over.

Make sure it covers fire as well. Buddy in Minn. reduced his insurance over winter, had a fire in his garage, bike was a total loss. Not covered under homeowners.

[raYzerman]

A few years ago I went down a rabbit hole to look into fuel, ethanol and stabilizers and a bunch of MSDS sheets... most stabilizers have naptha (which has many descriptions) as a main ingredient. Some have isopropanol. Ethanol isn't the same as isopropanol or methyl hydrate (used to treat water in fuel). AFAI can tell, when water content reaches 4.5%, ethanol has reached saturation and any further water just stays separate and sinks to the bottom. An FI bike may not start as water is the first thing pumped into the injectors. So, in a 6 gallon tank, @10% that's 0.6 gal. of ethanol, and 4.5% saturation is the amount of water it can take, so max 4.5% of 0.6 gal... Isopropanol or methyl hydrate can take care of many times that, and I'd venture to say you won't get enough water from normal storage and breathing to come anywhere close to saturating it. What would be the consequences of filling a tank with 100% isopropanol.... certainly wouldn't be any water problem IMHO. Even if it attracts some small amount of water from fuel breathing in storage, it will all be taken care of.
Certainly in all cases, filling the tank with fuel is still a good idea as air expands and contracts way more than any liquid.... less air, less chance of sucking in moisture. Now what if you were to plug the vent line? Not much consequence there either (there's always a bit of air in the tank as it's impossible to fill it to the brim due to the filler neck depth).

[Reserector]

Devil's advocate:
My only concern then, Ray, would be the possibility of damaging o-rings or other rubber or plastic parts with the isopropanol in such a pure form. Could it cause swelling? Shrinkage? Chemical breakdown of the materials?
I remember having to change fuel lines on pre-ethanol motorcycles and even on my boat restoration project due to compatibility issues with ethanol. That's why I raise the point.

[raYzerman]

I was only pointing out 100% alcohol will take care of any possible water..... not advocating actually filling the tank with it, not practical, just add some to the fuel.... however, I use a lot of isopropanol aound here for cleaning all kinds of things including rubber. It doesn't seem to affect rubber at all and is mild enough to clean up oil spills, brake fluid and other things on paint, eg. Used a lot of it in the automotive industry.

[FJRoss]

A few years ago I went down a rabbit hole to look into fuel, ethanol and stabilizers and a bunch of MSDS sheets... most stabilizers have naptha (which has many descriptions) as a main ingredient. Some have isopropanol. Ethanol isn't the same as isopropanol or methyl hydrate (used to treat water in fuel). AFAI can tell, when water content reaches 4.5%, ethanol has reached saturation and any further water just stays separate and sinks to the bottom. An FI bike may not start as water is the first thing pumped into the injectors. So, in a 6 gallon tank, @10% that's 0.6 gal. of ethanol, and 4.5% saturation is the amount of water it can take, so max 4.5% of 0.6 gal... Isopropanol or methyl hydrate can take care of many times that, and I'd venture to say you won't get enough water from normal storage and breathing to come anywhere close to saturating it. What would be the consequences of filling a tank with 100% isopropanol.... certainly wouldn't be any water problem IMHO. Even if it attracts some small amount of water from fuel breathing in storage, it will all be taken care of.
Certainly in all cases, filling the tank with fuel is still a good idea as air expands and contracts way more than any liquid.... less air, less chance of sucking in moisture. Now what if you were to plug the vent line? Not much consequence there either (there's always a bit of air in the tank as it's impossible to fill it to the brim due to the filler neck depth).

4.5% of 0.6 gallons is 0.027 gallons or 3.4 ounces of water. Exact amount will depend upon gasoline formulation - I have seen data that suggests a bit higher solubility. Isopropanol may be much more effective than ethanol as a co-solvent but you wouldn't add it at 10%. Note that most "drugstore" isopropyl alcohol may contain up to 10% water already.

I'm just saying that the ethanol already present in your gasoline can accommodate a modest amount of water without separating whereas "pure" gasoline has almost no tolerance for dissolving water. Seafoam contains some isopropyl alcohol, but the MSDS says < 25% IPA and also says < 95% hydrocarbon blend (probably naphtha).

Fuel stabilizers (i.e. Stabil) do not act as co-solvents to disperse water but more to prevent chemical degradation and formation of gum/varnish. Not the problem that it used to be with modern fuels and their standard additives but I still use it.

[Reserector]

For long term winter storage, I go with filling the tank as much as practicable with non-ethanol of any grade. If there is none available at filling stations, try the local airport. Your FJR might fly with some 100 low lead.

[Spininprop]

I removed the left side case just to be safe while the new HVAC system was brought inside to install. I know, not much at all. It's still dirty from SFO.

[Panman]

Pulled the Forks for a check over most likely a rebuild, have been getting some good head shake so pulled the triple clamps and drove the old races out. Time for a set of All Balls to go in, thanks Mr Green.

[D-Eagle]

Now I'm confused (it happens often). So are you saying to fill the tank over Winter with ethanol free gas or E10 gas? I always used Ethanol free as it stays fresher longer and doesn't attract moisture like ethanol gas does. Am I reading the above wrong?

[raYzerman]

Ethanol free if you can get it, but E10 is ok too. E10 is mandated here now, so no choice, and when using Seafoam as my stabilizer, I've not had any problems at all, bike fires right up in the spring. Then I just go burn off that tank of fuel.

[CollingsBob]

I’ve been very careful to not measure the Seafoam that I put in the gas tank for a month or so before putting the bikes away for the winter in our unheated, partially insulated garage for almost 20 years. I am careful to use a shitload of Seafoam. I also switch to Shell premium fuel for the last few fills because it used to be ethanol free. In other words..my method is completely unscientific. So far it has resulted in a bike that starts right up in the spring.

[Red]

Pulled the Forks for a check over most likely a rebuild, have been getting some good head shake so pulled the triple clamps and drove the old races out. Time for a set of All Balls to go in, thanks Mr Green.

Panman,

I believe the ball bearings in the FJR steering head are over-taxed, even with the best quality bearings (Timken, SKF, et c.).
Tapered roller bearings are much better suited to the loads we put on them there. I'd still go with the best available, for that use.
It's the only sure-cure I know for FJR head-shake, long term.
Many threads here to help you with the switch to tapered roller bearings.
Just a thought . . .

[FJRoss]

Now I'm confused (it happens often). So are you saying to fill the tank over Winter with ethanol free gas or E10 gas? I always used Ethanol free as it stays fresher longer and doesn't attract moisture like ethanol gas does. Am I reading the above wrong?

Yes and no...
If moisture condenses in non-ethanol fuel, it will drop to the bottom of the tank where it will do no good - can rust the tank and make the bike difficult or impossible to start. In 10% EtOH gas (if dry to begin with), a modest amount of water will dissolve in the fuel and not drop out. Does not affect normal operation. It is true that the E10 will tend to pull more moisture from humid air. Other alcohols (such as methanol or IPA) will also encourage absorption of moisture.

I don't think fuel stability in E10 is as big a problem as it used to be. I add Stabil to hopefully reduce varnish/gum formation but don't really expect it has any significant effect. Modern additives used in quality fuel are pretty decent. A little Stabil or Techron if you are concerned...

I think the most important thing is to have the tank pretty much full (but not to the absolute brim because it may overflow with fuel expansion on a warm day). If the tank is full, there is relatively little air movement in and out as temperatures fluctuate and shouldn't matter (within reason) if you have E10 or "pure" gas. Ethanol-free gas is not available where I live so there is no point in speculating which is better. I use (fresh) E10 from a busy station to fill the tank and use Stabil. Bike is stored in an unheated garage where temperature varies with outside temperature (but is usually above freezing) and is humid from melting snow/ice off the car. Bottom of my tank is still shiny/new looking and haven't had a fuel, fuel pump, injector or tank-related issue in 15 FJR years (2 bikes). We used to be able to get Premium in ethanol-free (and I used to use it for storage) but not for the last half-dozen years or so. Starts instantly in the spring...

[raYzerman]

I prefer to not worry about alcohol "attracting" water... doesn't matter how much or how little alcohol is in the tank, the amount of moisture that enters is due to the amount of breathing the tank does and the humidity level of that air.. At the end of the storage period, whatever that amount of water is, it is. The type of alcohol will determine how much can be taken care of. I still think plugging the vent line might be a good idea, that will stop the breathing, and the tank will not swell or shrink to any appreciable degree, certainly nothing harmful.

[FJRoss]

I prefer to not worry about alcohol "attracting" water... doesn't matter how much or how little alcohol is in the tank, the amount of moisture that enters is due to the amount of breathing the tank does and the humidity level of that air.. At the end of the storage period, whatever that amount of water is, it is. The type of alcohol will determine how much can be taken care of. I still think plugging the vent line might be a good idea, that will stop the breathing, and the tank will not swell or shrink to any appreciable degree, certainly nothing harmful.

Or put a tube of Drierite on the vent line. Drierite is a calcium sulfate desiccant with cobalt sulfate indicator which turns from blue (dry) to pink (wet) as it absorbs moisture. There is also a similar indicating silica gel desiccant. (I still wouldn't bother with anything beyond the tank top-off and Stabil. Haven't had a problem in the past.)

[raYzerman]

Agree, pour in your stabilizer and let it sit.

Stabil MSDS... (and others) vast majority is naptha (petroleum distillates hydrotreated light, solvent naptha and napthalene). Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether is a surfactant, likely helps the naptha dissolve gums. Proprietary ingredients may or may not have much effect, depends if you believe in the marketing. There is more than one Stabil product being sold.