Diagnosing starting trouble, battery?

[ionbeam]

OK, call off the dogs, I may have solved it. when comparing the starter today to pictures I took of it prior to disassembly I noticed the center body of the motor was backwards. Figuring that might have something to do with it, I took it apart and reversed it. Put it back together and it spins the other direction! Put it in the bike and now it makes proper noises when I put power to it. Yea!

In an earlier post I said that Russ was a smart guy. Very glad that it's fixed and it wasn't worse to get repaired. Now to reverse payment to Rick's. Revoking Rick's recommendations.

Now, take that FJR out for some foliage rides, color is currently down to the central NH/Mt. Washington area and mid Vermont.

[rbentnail]

Once again, so much for the "experts" doing anything well. I'd damn sure be making my dissatisfaction known, politely but firmly without regard to hurting any feelings.

[Snowflake]

Update. Been riding for a few weeks since the starter rebuild and 'adjustment' All is well. Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion. Especially Professor Ionbeam. Of course he caused me to buy a new multimeter, one with a current measurer.

[Canadian FJR]

Just pulled the starter off my old ‘03, no plans to rebuild it. I’m this far in, might as well replace it. All kinds on Amazon. Any in particular I should stay clear off?


Canadian FJR

[El Toro Joe]

So I got a new Yuasa battery last year and it's been on a tender since the last time I rode it in December. Today I rolled it out of the garage to wash the wife's SUV, and when I went to pull it back into the garage it cranked slow but did start. Could there be something drawing power?...everything that I have is run through a fuseblock under the seat. Any ideas?

[raYzerman]

Just pulled the starter off my old ‘03, no plans to rebuild it. I’m this far in, might as well replace it. All kinds on Amazon. Any in particular I should stay clear off?


Canadian FJR

Most motorcycle starters have the same guts and specs, only the end housings are different and where the cable attaches. Permanent magnets in the barrel and a set of brushes..... I don't know that really there are any that should be avoided. Denso or Mitsubishi were the big manufacturers, likely a bunch of Chinese knock-offs now, but again, all pretty standard.. The genuine Yammy one is big bucks...... One thing I did on my project bike is buy a used FJR one from a low miler Gen3.... hope that helps some.
Now if you're going to get a starter relay, get an OEM. There are Chinese knockoffs of those and they don't last long, I hear it all the time on the various forums.

[raYzerman]

So I got a new Yuasa battery last year and it's been on a tender since the last time I rode it in December. Today I rolled it out of the garage to wash the wife's SUV, and when I went to pull it back into the garage it cranked slow but did start. Could there be something drawing power?...everything that I have is run through a fuseblock under the seat. Any ideas?

Are you using a Battery Tender Jr. or the real one? I assume you've plugged it in again. Time to get your voltmeter out and check the battery resting voltage.... fully charge, disconnect, do an ignition on/off cycle (kill switch in Run), shut it off and check voltage at the battery after letting it sit overnight. Whatcha got? Should be 12.8 or more.
You could check the charge while the Battery Tender is hooked up and is showing green.... should be ~13.2V
You can check your fuseblock and put a voltmeter to each fuse.... two wee metal contacts on top of each fuse... voltmeter to the incoming side will have 12V if that circuit is live (if you configured it that way) and will have 12V on the other contact too. For a switched circuit, there should be no voltage on either until you turn on the key.
For those that are configured live, check the device, i.e., USB charger, phone charger, voltmeter, etc. All those will have a draw. GPS cradle if you have it live, is not using any power as long as the GPS is not in the cradle.
Having said all that, it's possible to have a perception of slow cranking.... have you tried it since? I'd just monitor each time you start it for the next few rides and see if it happens again.

[FJRoss]

So I got a new Yuasa battery last year and it's been on a tender since the last time I rode it in December. Today I rolled it out of the garage to wash the wife's SUV, and when I went to pull it back into the garage it cranked slow but did start. Could there be something drawing power?...everything that I have is run through a fuseblock under the seat. Any ideas?

In addition to Ray's comments. You might have a starter motor with issues. Best check is a clamp-on DC ammeter to check starting current draw. Shouldn't exceed around 80 amps IIRC.

I never leave my FJR on a battery maintainer - I have seen a number of batteries ruined because of poor regulation and/or lack of temperature compensation. A healthy AGM shouldn't lose more than a few percent per month and the FJR parasitic draw is just a fraction of a milliamp. I top mine off maybe twice in a four month layoff using a temperature regulated bsttery maintainer. OEM Yuasa in my 13 year old 2011 probably needs replacement this year - 160 000 km.

Do the diagnostic checks as per Ray, and check starting current draw. If all is OK, pull the battery and charge it fully. If cranking is still slow, get it load tested.

[FJRoss]

Just to add to what has been mentioned about battery maintainers.

Not all float chargers are properly regulated and quite a few of them are not temperature compensated. The ideal "float" level changes with temperature - higher voltage required at lower temperature and lower voltage at high temperature. Float is usually optimized for 25°C (77°F). Float voltage variance is given as approximately 3.9mV per cell per 1°C (some differences between data sources, but around this level). For example, at 10°C (50°F), the difference is 15°C and a 12 V battery is 6 cells, so: 15 x 3.9mV x 6 cells/1000 = 0.351V. You need 0.351 higher voltage to a proper float so a charger that is not temperature compensated will maintain the battery at a level that is significantly below optimum. At 35°C (104°F), an uncompensated tender will keep the battery in an overcharged condition by a similar amount. Many of the lower cost maintainers (i.e. Deltran Battery Tender Junior) are not temperature compensated - it is worth checking, especially if you are "maintaining" your battery in particularly cold (or hot) conditions.

Worth checking with a good voltmeter in case your device is not applying the correct maintenance voltage under varying conditions. As I said, I only use my (temperature compensated) maintainer to "top-off" the charge every month or two if I am not riding. I don't leave it connected.

[El Toro Joe]

I've been using the Deltran Battery Tender Plus.

[FJRoss]

I've been using the Deltran Battery Tender Plus.

The "Plus" is temperature compensated AFAIK. The "Junior" is not.

[raYzerman]

The Plus also has a desulphation mode, the Jr. does not. I'm good with your Battery Tender, Joe!! I have 2 Jr's and plug them in when I know the battery is charged above 12.5V. An AGM is 50% discharged at 12.5 according to Yuasa. If I accidentally ran a battery down, very rare for me, I use the Plus. I have a couple of used batteries that I use as shop power supplies, keep them on the Plus.

My bikes are pretty much plugged in all the time, for the last 18 years, my batteries are lasting as long as anybody's...... no worries!!

[Hppants]

A little off topic, but having now experienced no less than 3 data points (seperate bikes), I can state that the OEM battery for the FJR is quite possibly the overall BEST battery I have ever owned on ANY vehicle. My '14 got sold last year (9 years) with the original battery in it. And that battery never sat on the tender waiting for me to charge it with the stator. Of course, the engine never sat for very long either, lol....

[El Toro Joe]

A little off topic, but having now experienced no less than 3 data points (seperate bikes), I can state that the OEM battery for the FJR is quite possibly the overall BEST battery I have ever owned on ANY vehicle. My '14 got sold last year (9 years) with the original battery in it. And that battery never sat on the tender waiting for me to charge it with the stator. Of course, the engine never sat for very long either, lol....

yea...and you don't live where there are freezing temps either.

[FJRoss]

A little off topic, but having now experienced no less than 3 data points (seperate bikes), I can state that the OEM battery for the FJR is quite possibly the overall BEST battery I have ever owned on ANY vehicle. My '14 got sold last year (9 years) with the original battery in it. And that battery never sat on the tender waiting for me to charge it with the stator. Of course, the engine never sat for very long either, lol....

yea...and you don't live where there are freezing temps either.

On the other hand, I DO live where we get cold temperatures and typical winter layoff from early December to at least mid-March (varies somewhat). The OEM Yuasa in my 2007 FJR lasted 10+ years and 160,000 miles. The OEM Yuasa currently in my 2011 is at 13 years and 100,000 miles (but will likely need replacement this year). As mentioned above - no regular use of a tender but a charge top-off a couple of times over the winter.

Too hot is worse for an AGM than colder conditions. Deep discharge and overcharge are killers as well. Optimum charge rate is C/10 or 1.2 amp but anything under 2 amps is probably OK. Boost and ride is NOT the best way to charge a battery inadvertently discharged by leaving the ignition or an accessory turned on (too high a charge rate) but often there is no real choice if you are on the road.

[raYzerman]

A fully charged battery will have the slowest discharge rate.... you can store them up to -73 and they will not freeze.... now don't try that with a discharged battery......

[Canadian FJR]

Just for the heck of it I decided to get a local shop have a look at my starter and it checks out fine. S0, I am thinking that I either have a bad ground somewhere or it's the starter relay. (Battery is good)

I'll start the ground search this evening.

Canadian FJR

[raYzerman]

I'd vote starter relay, perhaps the innards are burnt after all these years..... starter is grounded to the engine by simply mounting it. Gen1 ground cable, not sure, is it on the right lower part of the engine (on one of the oil pan bolts)? Otherwise all you got is the two positive starter cables on the relay..... did you check the connector to the starter relay is not corroded (as well as that multi-way connector up by the steering head)?

[Canadian FJR]

Starter and throttle bodies installed

Relay and ground on the list for tomorrow evening


Canadian FJR