Resurrecting the Age Old Dilemma - to Bluetooth or not to Bluetooth?

[Hppants]

I just setup the 2021 with my sound system. I still use the Shure wired ear bud connected to the ampli-rider for sound (MP3 player) and radar detector (Passport Xxx). I can't use turn-by-turn from the XT 'cause I don't have bluetooth. After a few days, my ear canals need a break, so I have a set of wired Torx in helmet speakers I switch to with foam ear plugs. I can hear the radar detector just fine, but those speakers won't play the music loud enough (and be remotely audible) to overcome the ear plugs.

I can't STAND helmet wind noise. Riding without the earbuds or ear plugs is not gonna happen.

I don't care about phone calls while riding, but do admit that at RARE times, helmet to helmet comms would be nice. To put into context, I don't like chatting with others while riding, but in an unfamiliar area, assistance with directions or a declaration of a stop to eat/fuel/etc. would be helpful.

I've tried two model SENA products and both failed where I need them most - the music sound quality is total garbage. I've tried plugging my shure ear buds into the sena and it's BARELY better. The amplifier for the sena is just not strong enough for high fidelity sound. After all, you don't need much power for voice frequencies - I get it.

I've tried two different sets of those $20 "filtered" ear plugs in an effort to allow more good sound into my ears. All they do is decrease the noise reduction - I still get the wind noise, except now it's funneled and concentrated through the "filter", resulting in a high pitch frequency that is, to put it mildly, a PITA.

I sure wouldn't mind getting rid of the menagerie of wires I am running now, to include spare wires under the seat if (when) one fails me on the road.

So what I need is a set of B/T speakers that are loud and clear enough to be heard over the ear plugs. And I need for those speakers to be "pair-able" with Sena Comms for when I'm riding with others (fat chance).

Saw these on Facebook this morning:

https://www.syphonsound.com/?fbclid=IwA ... Y6SJxqD_Jg

At 115 DB maximum output, I'm intriqued. My foam earplugs are -31 (ish) DB, which should (could?) leave about 78 (ish) DB. That's just a smidge above ambient. The reviews seem to track this line of thinking and, well.... they are $200 (TWO HUNDRED BUCKS) - I'm not quite so convinced to give 'em a try. (sigh)

I"m so spoiled with the Shure ear buds - the noise cancelling technology is incredible and the sound quality is tremendous. I really (REALLY) enjoy my music when riding. I guess the music sound quality is my priority, and therefore, I relent to stay with what I have.

It's almost like I wish there was a set of "Beats" headphones that can be installed in the helmet with the soft cushy ear coverings that would slide over my ears when I don the helmet, and then seal the noise out thereafter.

At the risk of beating the dead horse, what do you have and how do you like it?

[extrememarine]

Sena 30k connected to phone only for music, calls, and traffic alerts while running the Waze traffic / nav app. GPS is on stem mount, but have never had consistent luck keeping the Sena > Zumo 595 > phone triangle of love happy. I use the Sena speakers and ear plugs - These mostly unless I've got a long slice of slab to endue, then these (Mack's).

I accept that I am not in a sound studio when I'm on the motorcycle at speed and accept a lower quality audio associated with the equipment I have.

Sena does have a higher output set of helmet speakers (here ) that comes with the 50 series and are compatible with the 30k and 20S base > Sena - SC-A0325 High Definition Speakers, Improved Bass and Clarity | Fits 20S EVO and 30K

I would say that the Sena 30k is the lowest model I would go with today - the mesh based communication is much better in a group ride setting; the bluetooth based comm has a much shorter connection distance (line of sight) - I experienced this in the past 2 rides; if you're nose to tail, bluetooth comm is fine - get separated by a car, and it's marginal at best where mesh allows for a bit further reach. It doesn't sound like this is even a factor in your search...

[Auburn]

Because the new goldwings are Bluetooth to get the sound from the bike, we tried Sena S50 and Cardo Bold PacTalk. Both sucked badly. The noise cancelling was terrible.

Then we Tried the J&M BT04 because their wired system for goldwings was really good. The sound quality and noise cancelling are the best by far of any I tried. I can make phone calls and the other end can't tell I am on a bike doing 90 mph. They have since put out the BT05 headset https://jmcorp.com/Bluetooth-Headsets_c_12.html which is not compatible with the 2018+ goldwings, so I have not tried them. They come with speakers that you can fit into the helmet, and you can still use your Sure speakers plugging into the headset. I don't know if the BT05 does mesh or other stuff with other riders. We needed them to talk with each other and to communicate with the wing.

The battery life is an issue for us since we ride more than 8 hours. I plug the power cable into a battery pack that is in my inside pocket in my riding suit.

I do have the new yet to be announced BT06 on order when they get here later this spring as they will be compatible with the new wings. I am getting them as back up. Currently they are $139.99 with this discount code 125p52169 you get $35 off.

[Hppants]

Thanks Wayne, for your insight. If the Sena provides an acceptable solution to the sound quality issue with the music, then certainly I want to get the benefit of other enhancements (such as the mesh comms).

I did not realize Sena made a speaker upgrade. That is interesting. You mention that they come with the 50 series, and that you have the 30 series - do you have the upgraded speakers, and if so, how are they?

I have not tried those Hi-fi ear plugs. I have tried the Earpeace and one other (can't remember). Since you don't use them for long slab runs, may I assume that the hi-fi plugs are not as effective as standard foam plugs?

It's an impossible dilemma - I know. Get rid of all of the wind noise, and just allow music and voice frequencies in.

[Hppants]

Because the new goldwings are Bluetooth to get the sound from the bike, we tried Sena S50 and Cardo Bold PacTalk. Both sucked badly. The noise cancelling was terrible.

Then we Tried the J&M BT04 because their wired system for goldwings was really good. The sound quality and noise cancelling are the best by far of any I tried. I can make phone calls and the other end can't tell I am on a bike doing 90 mph. They have since put out the BT05 headset https://jmcorp.com/Bluetooth-Headsets_c_12.html which is not compatible with the 2018+ goldwings, so I have not tried them. They come with speakers that you can fit into the helmet, and you can still use your Sure speakers plugging into the headset. I don't know if the BT05 does mesh or other stuff with other riders. We needed them to talk with each other and to communicate with the wing.

The battery life is an issue for us since we ride more than 8 hours. I plug the power cable into a battery pack that is in my inside pocket in my riding suit.

I do have the new yet to be announced BT06 on order when they get here later this spring as they will be compatible with the new wings. I am getting them as back up. Currently they are $139.99 with this discount code 125p52169 you get $35 off.

J&M makes high quality stuff - and it last. I should give them a look. With your BT04 - can you pair with SENA and/or Cardo riders?

[N4HHE]

Yes, Sena sound quality sucks no matter the speaker or earplugs.

Cardo Packtalk Bold has much better sound quality. Even better when you order the JBL option. Better speakers plus software equalization. But Cardo will not link to Sena. I play music through my Packtalk stock speakers and -26dBA ear plugs.

Most everyone around here was Sena many years ago but after a spectacularly bad long day in the rain with 2 friends and somehow all 3 of us went different directions I bought a Packtalk Duo JBL and gave it to my friends whose headsets had failed, and cellphones were out of service area. On the Natchez Trace in TN, of all places. They had been fighting issues with Senas, and UClears, and others for years and I was finally sick of it.

Today among a much larger group, Senas are becoming rarer and rarer. The Packtalk is not perfect but it works very well.

[Cav47]

Just go ahead and start an electronic oil thread why don't ya!


I hear you on all of this. (pun intended)

There is no perfect answer. I wish you the best in pursuit of this dilemma, it is not an easy fix........or someone would have it done. Smarter people than I will know what the limiting factor of speaker volume would be. The other issue would be battery life after pumping move volume/power into the speakers.

[extrememarine]

I did not realize Sena made a speaker upgrade. That is interesting. You mention that they come with the 50 series, and that you have the 30 series - do you have the upgraded speakers, and if so, how are they?

No - I have the OE speaker set currently. Being a fugal individual, I'm not one to replace a functioning component just because there is a newer / mo-better version available. If a set in either of our helmets stops working, I'd replace it with the updated speaker set.

I have not tried those Hi-fi ear plugs. I have tried the Earpeace and one other (can't remember). Since you don't use them for long slab runs, may I assume that the hi-fi plugs are not as effective as standard foam plugs?

The "hi-fi" ear plugs allow conversation (and music) through yet block out the wind / background noise. On a long slab run, to reduce the opportunity for noise fatigue, I use the foam ear plugs as they have a higher db reduction rating.

My '04 had J&M audio equipment installed. The sound quality was superb; I needed helmet components for my helmet but could not stomach the cost of it - but a prime example that exceptional quality can come with an equivalent price.

[Cav47]

When BigJohn was here last week, we threw his extra Cardo in Spawns helmet and I used it for a quick ride. The quality of sound was much better. I could not hear any feedback or wind noise. I did not have to run the volume up at all. I rode that short stint without earplugs. I am not sure it will solve all your problems, but it might be an option. Swapping the speakers/unit/mic was literally a 5 min job.

Like Wayne, I know that our systems cannot do all 3 well. You basically get to pick 2 of your wishes.

Good Sound Quality
Blocks Wind Noise
Non-Wired


Like the old theory of motorcycles and pedal bikes Pick 2 or the 3

Strong
Light
Cheap

I don't know if you have gotten crappy Senas before, but my threshold is undoubtedly lower for quality music.

[Auburn]

J&M makes high quality stuff - and it last. I should give them a look. With your BT04 - can you pair with SENA and/or Cardo riders?

I believe you can through the mesh system. I have not tried to.

I use the J&M system with Earpiece ear plugs, They seal out the wind noise and allow great sound form the J&M to my ears.

[raYzerman]

Pants, we've discussed a wee bit before..... I couldn't make the Sena better for music using Torx or another premium brand speaker set. The Sena doesn't have the amp horsepower to do it properly. I'm skeptical the Sena upgraded speakers would be any better, at least on the Sena 20's. I was tired of Sena, so I went with Packtalk Bolds... definitely better amp and speakers (JBL), and even the upgraded JBL's (just bigger) got mixed reviews whether they were slightly better than the regular JBL's.

If you're using mesh for comms, that is only possible within the same brand, Sena 30 or 50, or Packtalk (or maybe another Cardo unit). Otherwise, have to do bluetooth comm (as a phone) which apparently does not work well cross-brand.

Of course, wind noise is going to be a function of your helmet and windshield.... and I'll also pass along that I found out with a good setup, the comm unit sitting out there on the side of your helmet generates a significant amount of noise. Perhaps experiment with some Play-Doh to fill in between the helmet and the mount, and/or create a smooth path for airflow over the whole thing. You can always take it off later, then figure out something permanent that works to reduce it.

About earplugs, I think 33db's are a bit much, better to have something a shade less than 30.... can always snip a bit of the outer end off if you want to experiment. I'm using Howard Leight Max Lites, they are 30 db... the green ones, and they fit my smaller ear canals. I have tried musicians with the filters.... meh.... a little too noisy.

So, on to other possibilities.... discussion in another sandbox.... bluetooth earbuds. In the past most only had one bluetooth channel, the Sena and Packtalk have two.... to pair phone and GPS. With two-channel earbuds recently available, now possible to pair two devices to them, e.g. GPS or phone or both... or Sena for comm?? Question is how good are they at noise cancellation..... I may experiment if I can find a set that will stay in my smaller ear cavities.
https://www.fjrowners.com/threads/helme ... th.157811/

[rbentnail]

Pants, reading your first post and skipping over all the others, you sound a lot like me. I prefer wired earbuds to speakers, earplugs at a minimum are a MUST, I too cannot stand the wind noise. And I don't give a crap about the phone calls, more on this later. And I am definitely NOT a comms person so no Sena, Cardo, or whatever here. So what I do/did:

I have an mp3 player in my pocket with wired earbuds. First I changed the style of replacement tips. Yes, I had to change my earbud set but with the constant ringing in my head I ain't no audiophile so it was no big deal. I went with squishy foam tips. They act as ear PLUGS as well as ear BUDS. There's different sizes. Very comfortable for me. And I get to turn the volume way down.

https://www.etymotic.com/product/er38-14fb/

So the vast majority of the time this is the way I roll- music and visual gps. But sometimes, like when in crowded or urban areas, it's good to have audio turn instructions. I use Garmins, an XT and a 595. Both are Bluetooth compatible with a SD card addition so here's me:

I ordered a small, very simple Bluetooth receiver. My earbuds plug right into it. Paired with my gps, it gives my audio turn instructions.

https://www.taotronics.com/products/tt- ... h-receiver

But with the gps audio, I had no music. Hence the SD card. I put about 8gb of music on a 16gb card. Now, with via Bluetooth with the adapter, I have both audios I want. The music plays, stops, I get turn instructions, then the music picks up where it left off.

So, back to the phone. My Mom is 84, my MIL 87. So I Bluetooth pair my phone with the gps "just in case". Everyone I know knows- to contact me, send a text. Do not call, I won't answer. Hell, I'm likely someplace without a signal anyway. But if you text I'll get it and the XT will alert me that I have a message. Good enough.

If you need more specific info of SD card formatting, XT file structure, Bluetooth pairing or anything that I've described, it's pretty straightforward & I can help with that. It's simple enough that a moron technophobe like me can do it!

[bigjohnsd]

Joey, I'll be happy to mail you a Cardo PT Bold unit to experiment with.

My current setup is to pair my Cardo headset to my XT, my Android Phone to my XT. I am now using a set of Fuze Short Cord "Music" molded ear buds. https://earfuze.com/products/short-fuze-short-cord
They work great. They send you the ear buds and the kits needed to mold the earplugs around the buds.

I've never found ear plugs that work well with any Helmet speakers, every set I've tried has attenuated the music too much to work at speed. I just got a set of new 24db Ear Peace plugs and haven't tried them yet, I used my Fuze setup for SEO and was quite pleased.

Let me know if you want to try a PT Bold with their JBL speakers.

[juniorfjr]

I used SD JOHN'S pack talk when we went to Alaska and used my custom molded earbuds then. Now we both have the Packtalk and I have used the earbuds and it works well, but last year I got the earpiece earplugs and really like that setup. The biggest reason I ditched my sena was they got wet and never worked right afterwards, the Packtalk is waterproof.

[Panman]

I like simple, I use some Etymotic ER-6 In-Ear Speakers to listen to music thru the MP3 player. I have my Sena for listening to the GPS directions when needed. The key to this is the Sochi volume control for the MP3 player to mute the sound of the music when needed.

[Panman]

I like simple, I use some Etymotic ER-6 In-Ear Speakers to listen to music thru the MP3 player. I have my Sena for listening to the GPS directions when needed. The key to this is the Sochi volume control for the MP3 player to mute the sound of the music when needed.

[Bounce]

I just got a new set of "headphones"; bone induction. Very nice. They press lighting against the bones behind your ears. Nothing goes inside the ear (so normal earplugs can be worn). Clear as a bell and would bypass inner/outer ear issues some might have). The trick is to get something without the stiff connecting "band". The plastic piece connecting the two "buds" is rigid and shifts the "buds" when pressed like leaning against a high-backed chair. It wouldn't play well with a helmet. But if a way could be devised...

[Hppants]

Thank you all for responding - it's interesting for me to read about your different solutions.

My torx speakers are LOUD without ear plugs, and I think there might be a wireless speaker out there just as loud and clear (JBLs perhaps). But like John indicates, in order to drown out the wind noise, the ear plugs must be strong and they (the ear plugs) can't deliniate between letting in enough of the "good" sound, and keeping out enough of the "bad" sound.

One other thing worth mentioning: I use the Cee Bailey short windscreen. It fits me right and is the perfect compromise between deflection against buffering, and allowing some airflow to my head. I think that is working against me - if I used a taller screen with a bit more flip, I would help my cause. In that case, perhaps the filtered ear plugs might be enough.

I didn't even think about the idea of getting a B/T receiver with a 3.5 mm output for the GPS. I have a spare input on my ampli-rider that would work for that. I don't know how the ampli-rider figures this out, but when my radar detector goes off, the MP3 music volume is lowered. Perhaps that would work the same way when the GPS turn by turn talks.

Of course, if I solve the music problem, I can go with a B/T radar detector (Valentine) - it's probably time to consider that anyway but IIRC, the Valentine doesn't have a "wired" option. And I can go with music from the phone and B/T it to my helmet speakers. But that in of itself is a challenge. I've got about 8 GB of music already "purchased" - I guess I can transfer that to my phone (if I have space).

More research needed, but I'm listening. Thank you again.

[D-Eagle]

But like John indicates, in order to drown out the wind noise, the ear plugs must be strong and they (the ear plugs) can't deliniate between letting in enough of the "good" sound, and keeping out enough of the "bad" sound.

Exactly. My Sena isn't loud enough to overcome my foam ear plugs. But without them the wind noise is horrible. Tour screen up or down, it's not big enough to get me in a bubble, and it is always loud. Ear plugs are a must. One time I left ear plugs out while running up the street to a store. Somebody called and the phone ringing was so painfully loud. The speakers are very loud without ear plugs, but not enough to overcome them, at least in my setup. I also like the wind on my body in the Summer and don't want a monster windscreen. Too many wants I suppose.....

Following this thread closely......

[extrememarine]

Edit to add - my solution functions with the benefit of a CeeBailey's +4(tall)/+2(wide) reverse flip windshield (no longer in production). With that shield up about 1" from the lowest position, it creates a calm pocket of air around me, up another inch and that pocket puts both our helmets in a somewhat calm pocket of air. Granted, in the summer, I will cook behind that shield when the temp is over 80-85. It is a perfect spring / fall / winter shield for me.

If i swap to an OEM shield, I get no similar pocket of air, and all audio (music, phone) suffers significantly.