Diagnosing starting trouble, battery?

[Snowflake]

A few weeks ago my 2014 was exhibiting classic weak battery symptoms: slow turn over and almost no turn over. When running the battery voltage was about 12.8 at idle and ~13.5 at 3K rpm. The battery is at least 4 years old so I replaced it.

This weekend, I had the slow(er) engine cranking speed and a couple times I thought it wasn't going to turn at all. Both times it turned over really 'weakly' was after a short time off (gas stops) one of those time was with a relatively cool engine , 2 miles after first start of the day. The other one was with a very warm engine (sitting in traffic, temp at 220, the shut off for fuel stop, 3 minutes off).

I've never experienced this type behavior before on either of my FJRs (2005 and 2014). I'm wondering if I have a crappy battery or if there's something else going on.

Any ideas?

Thanks

[FJRoss]

First thing to check is the current draw when you are attempting to start. High current draw (greater than 80 amps) is indicative of a starter going south. By all means, get the battery load tested as well or try the bike with a known good battery.

[John d]

I went through this as well.
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=3609

[ionbeam]

A slow spinning starter is always because of low voltage. The problem is finding the cause. The first, best tool is a current tester, the results will be either too much current or too little.

Too little -- Weak battery, weak battery due to a charging problem, bad wire connections, bad starter relay contacts.

Too much -- almost always a bad starter. If the current draw is high, plan to repair or replace the starter. There are other things like mechanical drag that could make it hard for the starter to spin. One cause could be a clutch which doesn't fully disengage.

The charging is easy to check, a few minutes after starting the battery voltage on the battery posts (not the battery wire terminals) should be >13.1 volts and never go below this with normal electrical loads. The only exception may be when the cooling fans come on.

The bad wire connections are easy to check but may be a PITA to access the terminals. Take a DMM and connect the red lead to the + battery terminal and the black lead to the starter motor + terminal (yes, plus to plus). Crank the engine and watch the voltage (or, if the DMM has a Peak Voltage Hold, use it). The voltage should be <1.5 volts. This is a measurement of voltage drop during cranking. Do the same from the battery - terminal to the engine block. The voltage should be < 1.0 volts. This checks all the wiring as well as the starter relay contacts.

Have clamp-on current meter. Have mask, will travel. I still haven't started looking for work so scheduling isn't a problem.

[raYzerman]

I'd first ask what is the resting voltage of the new battery. Then, what is the charging voltage at idle... should be near 14V. We've not heard of regulator failures on FJR's in general.
I'd refresh the connections at the regulator by unplugging and re-plugging just to ensure that is good.

[Snowflake]

After reading through john d's linked thread, it does seems likely I have a starter issue. Thank you Mr. Beam for your typical thorough explanation and offer to help diagnose. Perhaps we'll have a more in depth discussion soon.

[raYzerman]

It could be a starter, but before drawing that conclusion, I'd still want to know charging voltage and battery resting voltage, how many miles on this 2014, etc. You could have a starter relay issue. Diving into the starter is a big job, so I'd want to check everything else before going there.

[ionbeam]

It could be a starter, but before drawing that conclusion, I'd still want to know charging voltage and battery resting voltage, how many miles on this 2014, etc. You could have a starter relay issue. Diving into the starter is a big job, so I'd want to check everything else before going there.

I did offer other diagnostics first before going at the starter . Snow' is a neighbor and a *very smart* guy so I don't expect a knee jerk solution.

[Snowflake]

with bike not running battery voltage is 12.8 v, which seems pretty normal.

[FJRoss]

with bike not running battery voltage is 12.8 v, which seems pretty normal.

Pretty normal, yes. Might or might not be a good indicator. What you need is a "load test" where the voltage drop is measured with a known load place on the battery. Batteries may have a decent resting voltage but shit the bed when they are asked to supply some amps. Some shops will do the test for free...

The starter is suspect so measuring the voltage while cranking does no good. In the absence of a proper load test, if you shut the bike off using the kill switch (lights stay on), what is the voltage reading with the modest load of the incandescent lights? Do the lights dim significantly when the engine is killed?

[NTXFJR]

Since you already replaced the battery, I would tend to doubt that it's gone south so soon. The next phase I would think is to identify where the excess loading is coming from, starter circuit, or parasitic losses from a short somewhere else on the bike's harness. Battery standing voltage with key off is one thing, but there may be some undue phantom draining that could be seen with with key on / engine off and circuits active including any any added aftermarket items. You can measure the standing voltage at this point to see if there's any appreciable drop, if so then start isolating circuits. If you don't find an appreciable amount of parasitic draining with key on / engine off, then it seems the next step would be to measure the amp draw on the starter circuit. If you decide that the starter is the issue, I'd recommend also replacing the starter relay because the contacts in it get stressed and overheated when feeding a bad starter.

[Snowflake]

thanks NTX, all helpful info.

[SkooterG]

To me, your voltages given while engine running are low. Out of the many FJRs I have had, they all read 13.9 - 14.1 volts while running. Be that at idle or at elevated rpm. The only time I had an FJR where the voltage at the battery while running dropped was on my '09. It exhibited similar symptoms as yours. A connector on the main wire from the stator to the R/R was going bad. Once I bypassed it all has been good for 60k miles or so.

[Snowflake]

Oh that bike? The one with the CT on it that I rode in New Hampshire? I put some boogers on your wires, that was the cause.

I checked the battery voltage again and it was 13.8-14.0 with engine running. I did a charging circuit test IAW Prof. 'Beams instruction. No issue.

Looks like I'll be digging into the starter this week. I'll post any interesting findings.

When you coming back to NE, Skoot?

[Snowflake]

So I sent the starter off to a powersports starter guy that Prof 'beam recommended. I got it back and today reinstalled it in the bike. Before putting all the other stuff on above it I thought it might be wise to put some power to it to verify it would turn the engine over. I went direct to the starter with jumper cables as the bike electrics aren't hooked up. The motor spins alright but the engine does not turn over. I seems to me the motor is spinning the wrong direction. I believe the starter is in correctly. When the starter is out I can reach in to turn it gear one direction. I can't turn it the other. I assume thats the clutch mechanism that engages the starter shaft.

Has anyone who has had the starter out ever looked to see what way the starter rotates on the bench?

I didn't see anything in the shop manual.

Thx

[raYzerman]

They have apparently assembled the permanent magnets 90 degrees out of phase, thus the starter runs backwards. When this happens, the starter clutch is basically freewheeling in the wrong direction. There should have been (at least faint) marks on the magnet and housing so they know where to orient them. IF the marks are still there (i.e., they did not wipe them off by cleaning it), should be able to realign and fix it.

[ionbeam]

Bummer! The starter can be assembled so it turns backwards. The starter output shaft turns the starter clutch assembly that lives above the stator on the left side of the engine. It is correct that the starter gear only turns in one direction.

For starters (so to speak) there are external alignment marks.



There are also internal alignments shown in the FSM.

[Intech]

You can fix the polarity on the starter, but it is PITA! I had one apart and had to get creative to get it back together. You need at least two more hands.

[raYzerman]

I found the external marks were with a thin marker pen, and I could find no internal marks. I have a starter at home that was misaligned. I can take it apart and look for internal ones in a coupla days when I return....

[Snowflake]

OK, call off the dogs, I may have solved it. when comparing the starter today to pictures I took of it prior to disassembly I noticed the center body of the motor was backwards. Figuring that might have something to do with it, I took it apart and reversed it. Put it back together and it spins the other direction! Put it in the bike and now it makes proper noises when I put power to it. Yea!