2017 ES Suspension Disapointment

[escapefjrtist]

<<snip>>...perhaps and a wee measurement of that spring length and roughly what the ID is?

Per the '15ES FSM, the shock spring free length is 7.40" and the installed length is 6.82". So...spring is installed with 0.58" preload or 14.7mm preload. Towards the higher end on installed preload, as Penske recommends 10 - 12mm initial preload for their shocks. That's of course assuming the correct spring rate is installed in the first place. Kinda sorta jives with Fontanaman's measured preload (addition) at each step with the max of 10mm. Penske recommends maximum spring preload of 25mm.

If I can get time, can measure the ES shock from the wrecked '16 and get OD/ID dimensions.

~G

[fontanaman]

Interesting read, thanks for sharing. My 07 with Traxxion AK-20's and Ohlins with 900 lbs shock was Awesome. It was on rails, and the harder I pushed it the better it liked it. It was a little harsh when going slow, but not to bad. I think I would get an A, not ES, and do the suspension again. What else is different between the 2 other than suspension?

On a year vs year basis the bikes are the same.

[FJRoss]

On a year vs year basis the bikes are the same.

Mostly...
2013, 2017, 2020 - "A" model not available in USA.
2016 and up have LED lights all around as well as some other changes.
ES model has "cornering lights", "A" does not.
The ES has upside-down forks, the "A" does not.

Edit: As correctly pointed out the 2013 "A" model does exist!! (Meant to say that there was no ES in 2013)

[danh600]

On a year vs year basis the bikes are the same.

Mostly...
2013, 2017, 2020 - "A" model not available in USA.
2016 and up have LED lights all around as well as some other changes.
ES model has "cornering lights", "A" does not.
The ES has upside-down forks, the "A" does not.

In 2013 the A model was available.
I have one.

[FJRoss]

On a year vs year basis the bikes are the same.

Mostly...
2013, 2017, 2020 - "A" model not available in USA.
2016 and up have LED lights all around as well as some other changes.
ES model has "cornering lights", "A" does not.
The ES has upside-down forks, the "A" does not.

In 2013 the A model was available.
I have one.

OOPS!!
Meant to say that "ES" was not available in 2013 (No "A" in 2017 and 2020)
Corrected in my previous reply.

[danh600]

Mostly...
2013, 2017, 2020 - "A" model not available in USA.
2016 and up have LED lights all around as well as some other changes.
ES model has "cornering lights", "A" does not.
The ES has upside-down forks, the "A" does not.

In 2013 the A model was available.
I have one.

OOPS!!
Meant to say that "ES" was not available in 2013 (No "A" in 2017 and 2020)
Corrected in my previous reply.

That is what I was thinking. There was no ES when I bought the 2013. The 2014ES was coming out but dealers didn't have them yet. I didn't want to wait around and pay more money for automatically adjustable suspension and upgrades. I was ready for an FJR!!!

[raYzerman]

<<snip>>...perhaps and a wee measurement of that spring length and roughly what the ID is?

Per the '15ES FSM, the shock spring free length is 7.40" and the installed length is 6.82". So...spring is installed with 0.58" preload or 14.7mm preload. Towards the higher end on installed preload, as Penske recommends 10 - 12mm initial preload for their shocks. That's of course assuming the correct spring rate is installed in the first place. Kinda sorta jives with Fontanaman's measured preload (addition) at each step with the max of 10mm. Penske recommends maximum spring preload of 25mm.

If I can get time, can measure the ES shock from the wrecked '16 and get OD/ID dimensions.

~G

Duh, why didn't I look in the FSM.... agree, initial preload should be as Penske says, but I suspect the 15mm preload is due to the length and lightness of the spring.... must be able to find a spring in that length or in combination with a spacer washer... it's plenty long to have good potential. Depends on distance between coils but could perhaps entertain a spacer for the existing spring if you are only going up 50 lbs....
Note most aftermarket hydraulic preloads (HPA's) only have a travel of about 10mm max. If I'm not mistaken, my aftermarket RaceTech and Elka shocks had 6" springs (ID 2.3"?)

[Canadian FJR]

I’m kinda surprised with this post. I go over 200lbs with my gear on and have known to run hard in the twisties including some track time with the FJR. I’m really happy with how well the suspension works and love being able to change it so quickly when required. I guess I need to run harder

Canadian FJR

[FJRoss]

Wonder if there is any problem with the bike? I haven't heard of a lot of complaints with the ES.
fontanaman, have you tried anyone else's ES to see if yours might have something wrong with it? I like my Penske and my AK-20 Traxxion setup but there are times when it would be nice to change conditions on the fly. Not to mention USD forks.

[escapefjrtist]

<<snip>>...perhaps and a wee measurement of that spring length and roughly what the ID is?

Per the '15ES FSM, the shock spring free length is 7.40" and the installed length is 6.82". So...spring is installed with 0.58" preload or 14.7mm preload. Towards the higher end on installed preload, as Penske recommends 10 - 12mm initial preload for their shocks. That's of course assuming the correct spring rate is installed in the first place. Kinda sorta jives with Fontanaman's measured preload (addition) at each step with the max of 10mm. Penske recommends maximum spring preload of 25mm.

If I can get time, can measure the ES shock from the wrecked '16 and get OD/ID dimensions.

~G

Duh, why didn't I look in the FSM.... agree, initial preload should be as Penske says, but I suspect the 15mm preload is due to the length and lightness of the spring.... must be able to find a spring in that length or in combination with a spacer washer... it's plenty long to have good potential. Depends on distance between coils but could perhaps entertain a spacer for the existing spring if you are only going up 50 lbs....
Note most aftermarket hydraulic preloads (HPA's) only have a travel of about 10mm max. If I'm not mistaken, my aftermarket RaceTech and Elka shocks had 6" springs (ID 2.3"?)

Rounding numbers and with the proper spring rate, one could use a 7" spring with a 6 - 7mm spacer. You'd end up with the proper preload and still have 10mm adjustment available from the ES system. Me thinks Fontanaman needs to take one for the team and be the guinea pig!

~G

[escapefjrtist]

<<snip>> I like my Penske and my AK-20 Traxxion setup but there are times when it would be nice to change conditions on the fly. Not to mention USD forks.

I've solved the "A" model USD fork dilemma. All that's needed is a wrecked ES with good forks. Simple swap!

~G

[fontanaman]

I don't want to offend anyone, rather share my experience coming from performance suspension to the ES. My post won't have as much meaning for a person who never had performance suspension. It is also about preferences. I like my bike on rails. Until I had performance suspension the term "on rails" had no meaning to me. For me as it is the ES is undersprung and soft.

We could check if there is a problem with my ES by checking the sag on somebody else's ES. I found at preload setting 1 (one helmet), without a person it, mine sags about 1" without saddlebags or top case. If somebody weights about 225-230 less clothes they could check the sag and see if it agrees with the numbers I posted.

Like FJRoss I thought it would be nice to change the conditions on the fly, plus have the USD forks. For me I have lost more than I have gained.

I am going to Red Lodge and will try riding around at preload 3 (2 helmets) and work with different damping settings. Maybe I will find some magic there. Won't do me much good if the wife wants to go for a ride again.

After Red Lodge I have choices including, maybe a 750# spring, living with the 17 ES or getting a a new 19 A model and add performance suspension. Time will tell. The ES isn't bad, it just isn't what I am used to and it is disappointing.

[raYzerman]

Have to remember Jim that suspension tuning no matter what, to me, takes a whole season over various conditions, a tweak here and there. It may just be possible to find a sweet spot for solo rider..... two up is another game, no good way to have enough spring/proper sag, so that becomes a compromise... you don't/can't ride same as solo unless pillion is 100 lbs, and we don't usually anyway...
Seems the spring is plenty long to not become coil bound, I'd keep on trying, perhaps even just going with a 1/4" spacer at some point, that should get you near enough to 750 I'd think.
G just got real lucky he could find some USD forks, finding used ES forks must be like looking for a needle in a haystack. All kool.

[bill lumberg]

This thread has inspired me to play with my dampening settings. I’ve just left Soft Medium and Hard at the factory presets. I’ve got my preload “dialed in” for my loads and usages, but I need to explore the outer ranges of the bounce house settings.

[Powerman]

My buddy bought an ES after several years back wrecking his R-1. I gave him my thoughts and offered a test drive on my 06 with Penske and Traction Dynamics. Finally got frustrated and went to Traction Dynamics.
I don't mind paying to play, I like it right with no excuses but my own sucky riding.

[raYzerman]

Replying to Jim's comments in the Dual Sport thread......

"Regarding the rear shock on the ES. Griff as we got ES we are screwed - that his the short story. Here is the longer version.

There are two risks to a new spring. First I don't have the electronic tools to zero out the ES before removing the rear shock per the FSM. Without taking this step I might throw a light to the dash or worse. I am not the best mechanic in the shed and don't like dealing with unknowns.

Second, for my weight 225lb, a 800lb spring seems the way to go for solo with luggage but with only 4 preload choices it maybe too little sag when riding two up. (Imagine that.) In other words preload can't be dialed in for two up. Yammie really dumbed down the system by giving us only 4 settings out of a possible 100, if you consider the ability to set the sag from 0 to 100%. Pisses me off.

Running the ES at 2 helmets aka the 3 of 4 preload settings with a Standard 0 damping works reasonable well so to "fix this" to make me smile again is full of options and none of them ideal. I have grown weary thinking about it.

And the ES isn't bad it is build for comfort and convenience. The front fork is pretty good and doesn't need much maintenance if any depending on how often you want to change fork oil. There are no bushings to wear out.

The rear shock is not serviceable. If it leaks it is $2800 on Partzilla. But I don't know of any that have gone bad. Makes head hurt.

I can say this I screwed up when I went ES. I sold my 09 with the Heli triple tree and after market suspension for the price of new after market suspension. Given a second chance I would have got an A model and moved the good stuff across. Getting back to that is just darn expensive. And finding a bike is easy but getting it in the era of Covid-19 is more difficult. I would not buy a used on site unseen and fly n ride a no go. So then there is new but that is even more expensive. It would cost me $5000-$8000 to get a 19 A model then get the good suspension.

Or putting on a different spring is filled with the unknowns suitable for only those who have better mechanical skills than I.

Paralysis analysis and procrastination are holding me back. It is riding season. "

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Jim, we really need an ES shock in front of us to see how the spring can be replaced. However, here is my understanding of "zeroing out", etc. and perhaps this will help.
What Yamaha calls the "DC Motor" is the preload adjusting motor, basically a hydraulic pump to expand the preload collar on the upper part of the shock, above the spring... as it expands it, it puts more pressure or preload on the spring. On an aftermarket shock with remote hydraulic preload, you twist a knob to accomplish the same thing. Yamaha's procedure is to zero it out if you have to service the DC Motor (replace it, or in response to an error code). Nobody said you had to zero it out or even remove the DC motor, but you could and should back off the preload to zero before you remove the old spring... you want least preload to install that new spring. Remove motor, turn the shaft back to zero, set per service manual, done. I'm not seeing what you're worried about.

The "Stepper Motor" is smaller and installed directly on the shock. This controls damping... no mention of setting anything with it. I'd have to see how it works, but it should be similar to the front fork stepper motor, a little hydraulic or mechanical unit that pushes on a damping rod. I don't see anything to worry about here either.

So we need to find out how the old spring is removed... if at the bottom clevis, then nothing needs taking apart up top. IF at the top, then I guess one has to remove some stuff, however, why not leave that to the professionals in suspension.... I'd ship that to Cogent Dynamics, best spot I can think of that will look at it and tell you what can and can't be done. May have to recharge nitrogen, etc. and we don't have the equipment, and they may even have to put in a charge valve like is on aftermarket shocks. OEM's usually never have one, hole is drilled, Schraeder valve installed.

Previously we talked about the spring was an odd length, somewhat longer than standard (although I know that length exists on other shocks, FYI). So Cogent would be best to find one, and worst comes to worst they'll shim it. Cogent or someone may know the amount of preload to add to get you close to the 800 lbs. you're looking for.
The other option is just to shim yours... which just ends up adding preload permanently with a big washer, wild guess 1/4" thick. A few photos of one of these shocks on a bench would be very helpful to see how the spring comes off, etc..

As for your ES forks... they already have 1.0 straight rate springs, rather short, but good for all but the big heavyweights. There are two bushings in the upper fork tube... can't replace without buying that upper fork tube as an assembly. Based on three ES fork sets I've had apart, oil was clean at 50k, bushings not worn..... put them on ignore for quite a while I'd say or a seal leak, whichever comes first.

[escapefjrtist]

I've got a low mile '16ES shock (BTW, still for sale) laying on my work bench. Measurements have been taken on the spring and I've got a sketch generated for what I believe the lower spring spacer / perch will look like. Slightly different dimensions, but very similar to what the Tenere gang has done with their ES shock spring upgrades. Cost for a chunk of aluminum is ~$8 and lathe work is free.

To remove the shock spring, the spring is compressed enough to remove the lower split mount and then it slides over the clevis. I've seen a couple listed, but the compressor from Motion Pro seems to work well enough. Safety first as the spring is compressed quite a bit.

Replacement spring will be standard 2-1/4" X 7" Eibach or Hyperco. Biggest decision; do we use a 800 or a 750 pound spring with slightly more preload. My calcs (and gut) tell me to start with a 750 at 15mm or 800 at 13-14mm preload. Personally, I would lean towards the 750 as seat pressure gets large with the 800 at full ES preload. The compromise again lies with the large ES preload step between ride/luggage and rider/passenger. Too heavy a spring or too much initial preload and the rider/passenger setting is unusable.

The damper stepper works identical as the ES fork caps. I can drive it with my gee-whiz card and laptop I currently use to adjust my ES forks. There is a small plunger that acts on a rod which likely moves the dampening needle in/out of the seat.

~G

[raYzerman]

Thanks ~G, good info. My initial thought was/is the existing spring is a 685, a 750 doesn't seem like much of an increase. However, will have to do a little research on the effects of preloading at a given spring rate, ie, difference of preloading (or adding spacer) on 685, 750 and 800 to determine best spring. I have attached the rear ES info (last available spring rate data was published for 2015ES). As installed, the 685 spring is already preloaded 14.7mm, but what is also needed is total travel of the ES spring load adjuster mechanism... ideally at each of the 4 steps available electronically.... then one could see what I call "simulated spring rate" at each setting, then determine same for 750 and 800. I haven't done this yet.....

Hydraulic preload mechanisms on aftermarket shocks, total travel more likely 6 or 8 mm, some maybe 10. On manual preload rings, of course only limited by the amount of threaded shock body.

First step I'd do is add a spacer, easiest, simplest, and with a little preload research, we could figure out end effect...... spacer might be just the ticket as a tweak and avoid spring purchase.

Recommended spring rate for 225 lb rider (solo) is 900-950 per Penske and 1025-1075 per RaceTech (too hard IMHO). Of course that depends on at what recommended preload as installed.... personal experience, 850 is working very well for me at 200 lbs (no gear), Penske says 900, RaceTech 1000. If you have HPA, then I think a bit lower is better. I do have a 900 Ohlins on my CBF, 530lb. bike, and although still good, 850 might have been better (Ha, I got the Ohlins fer real cheap).

[N4HHE]

RaceTech (and others) use Eibach springs, pretty universally available..... I don't quite understand "opening up the shock assembly"... shouldn't have to open anything up to change a spring.

You don't have to, but damping exists to counter the spring. A different spring rate will require different damping. When a bump compresses suspension the rebound damping keeps the spring from slamming the wheel back into the pavement with equal but opposite force.

Spring and damping need to be tuned together. Usually clickers on the shock provide sufficient adjustment.

[Allen_C]

As a long term owner of one of the first '14ES (VIN #15) now with over 60k miles, I agree the suspension is a little soft. When I want to ride hard in twisties, I simply use my thumb to adjust to 2up with luggage and Hard +3 and she holds lines much better. Rough roads or ripples will upset her some but not to the point of being scary unless I'm leaned way over.

Of course an aftermarket suspension will be "better" but if you ride 2up often, which I did, ride a good mixture of city, highway and curves, the rider who wants the convenience of adjusting the suspension without getting off or reaching below the seat is who the ES is best for.