2017 ES Suspension Disapointment

[fontanaman]

In the other sandbox on October 16th I said, “If I was in the market I'd go with an non-ES model and swap out my suspension.”

Fast forward to December 2019 and I bought a 2017 ES.

Fast forward to June 2020 and 7,000 miles later and the ES is a disappointment. I should have bought an A model and stuck with performance suspension components.

Let me give some background. I rode an 09 FJR 107,000 miles and at 30,000 I changed to a Penske 8983 shock with an 850 spring and a GP fork cartridge with stiffer spring. The 09 with the aftermarket suspension was very solid. It put a big smile on my face in difficult circumstances such as rough pavement, at 50 mph +, mid turn corner correction. Just a little more counter steer and the bike complied. There was no unwanted chassis movement and it got me out of tight spots with aplomb - it was simply amazing. The shock movement was fluid and controlled chassis movement perfectly. It was a bit stiff solo, but got better with luggage. Once set I never messed with it.

With that as my experience, next is my 17 ES experience. I bought the ES because I like the color Raven, it is a pretty bike, I assumed ES would be okay and ES would solve the stiff riding solo issue.

With preload set to 1, aka one helmet, the lowest preload setting, sag is about 1 inch without me on it. The rear shock has 4.9 inches of travel thus suspension sag should be about 1.25 inches. It is generally accepted sag should be 25-30% of the total shock travel or about 1.225 - 1.47. It is impossible to achieve a recommended sag level with one rider at preload setting one, aka one helmet.

Here are some measurements. Preload setting definitions:

1 means one helmet, 2 means one helmet plus luggage, 3 means two helmets, 4 means two helmets plus luggage.

Sag measurement with me on the bike. I weigh 225 sans clothing.

1 - 1 15/16 inches; 2 - 1 13/16 inches; 3 - 1 7/16 inches; 4 - 1 1/8 inch

For me the ES is under-sprung and the ES is built for comfort and convenience, not performance. Bryan Glynn who hosts Two Wheel Obsession has some good observations in this ES Video. He notes the 4 preload settings are not linear, leaving a gap in the middle. This is very interesting and my data above shows this. There is a big jump in stiffness between one helmet + luggage and two helmets. He also notes ES is not equal to aftermarket suspension as I am familiar with.

I have to use setting 3 to achieve a recommended sag setting. Sadly, the ES is just as stiff solo as the 09 when the shock is set to optimum sag/damping and the ES rear shock is not as fluid or stable as the performance suspension on my 09. It even slaps me in the butt. I have generally used setting 2 during my 7000 miles on the ES.

I have had a couple of "interesting moments" on the ES. Both times the suspension was set to setting 2 with Standard 0 damping. Each time I was in mid turn on a bumpy road at 50 mph or so and the chassis was moving around unexpectedly. This was quite a surprise - a big revelation - a what the heck moment. The bike is not on the rails and it is not as steady as the 09 FJR. The performance is lacking. I was not close to falling down, just the chassis moving around unexpectedly.

My next move a 750# spring. The bet is it will not overwhelm the damping system. I wish the FJR ES had infinite preload settings from 0 to 100%. As it is now I can only select settings in the lower third or upper third of the preload. With the 750# spring I am betting I can set it to one helmet with luggage and the preload will be somewhere in the middle one third that is currently unavailable with the stock 685 pound spring.

The rest of the 17 is terrific, the 6 speed tranny, lighter clutch pull, great fuel economy, the smoothness of the drive train package and the cruise control. The ES is just short of my expectations.

Hope this helps if you are seeking an opinion on the ES. Please note my opinion is based on having had performance suspension, my weight, my expectations, and the types of roads I ride on. I want my sports car back.

[raYzerman]

Jim, all FJR's are undersprung in stock form, except the ES front shocks (spring rate 1.0, straight rate). I echo your sentiments, and I bought a '14A instead, preferring at least to have the option to upgrade. I eventually did.
I am a bit curious why you are zeroing in on a 750 lb. spring when you really need 800 or even 850 for your weight. There has to be enough spring to hold you up as the fundamental feature. Keep in mind your fork springs are OK as is. You've played with it more than I have, just interested in your thoughts. I would expect with the higher spring rate, you can get away with less damping thus fully supported plusher ride if that makes sense.
My RaceTech shock was an 850 lb. spring for me at 210 before gear, RaceTech fork springs were .95 (Traxxion says use 1.1).

[fontanaman]

Hi Ray,

I did some work this week. One company wanted to open up the rear shock and add shims to adjust the preload to match the 850# spring. No guarantees and the risk is all mine. I don't have the tools to remove the shock either - need to set error code 85 to zero out the preload.

So I hit up on the idea of a 750 lb spring as it is much less risky than opening the shock assy. A bit of math suggested a 750lb spring would get the job done as well.

Now I have to find a spring. One of the local dealers said they could install it. Hopefully it will get me most of the performance back.

[escapefjrtist]

Good information and feedback Fontanaman.

Some of the (bigger) boys on the Tenere forum have the same comments. They found a replacement spring from Race Tech and IIRC, go up either 50# or 100# spring rate. The stock dampening seems to handle the spring rate increase fine.

~G

[raYzerman]

RaceTech (and others) use Eibach springs, pretty universally available..... I don't quite understand "opening up the shock assembly"... shouldn't have to open anything up to change a spring.
Don't worry too much about the preload "reset"... the procedure for that is in the FSM... can be done regardless of where it was before, but yes, zero it before removal a good idea.

[gixxerjasen]

Once set I never messed with it.

This right here. While the ES is fancy and all, I only ride solo and never fiddle with my suspension. Mostly because I don't know enough, but also because I don't ride hard enough or notice the need to fiddle much. When the time comes I'd pretty well convinced myself to go with a non ES model, and you help confirm it. Thanks for sharing all your findings on this, now and in the future as you continue to "Fiddle" with it.

[bill lumberg]

I’ve had an A and an ES. I would not hesitate to buy either again. Both have performed well for me solo and 2 up.

It took me over a year to convince myself that I needed to harden up my settings on the A. I continued to run the rear lever on low unless I was in the mountains or had the wife with me. Handled and rode great on the interstate (low) and in the twisties (high).

I really wanted the one rider, one rider with luggage, etc., to correlate to optimal settings for me on the ES. But I read an article early on that told me that wasn’t going to be the case with armor, a topcase, and me weighing 190lbs. So it’s one two riders around town and on the slabs, and two plus luggage in the mountains. I still go back and forth between hard and soft menu settings, just can’t decide which handles better.

In my mind, the A felt more poised, but I had a lot of miles on that bike set up a certain way. I ride faster and harder now than I did with the A (as close as I’ll ever get to fast, anyway), so it definitely isn’t holding me back. I will admit the ES feels looser when being thrown around hard. Like it’s a little larger bike than the A was. It may just be that I’m a little smaller rider than I was when I rode the A.

That reminds me- I probably need to check my steering torque. It’s only been 45,000 miles.

[raYzerman]

Like all the FJR suspensions, they were designed for lighter riders and seem geared to me more towards a touring type of mindset, soft ride out of the showroom, blah blah. When you are pushing it, as with all things, you'll find the weaknesses will show. If you're heavier, approaching or over 200 lbs., you're in upgrade territory.
So I can see for Bill it's OK, and there are enough settings to tweak it into acceptable territory. Others are going to dial in preload and damping and find it's perhaps a little "too hard" or they can't find the sweet spot.
Jim's on a mission here to get some preload without affecting the damping too much, all he can do it try it... no one has changed a spring on an ES yet to my knowledge, I think it will improve things....
Iff'n I was Yamaha, I woulda made damping adjustments independent of front and rear, and more tweakable between compression and rebound, perhaps more than 4 levels for better fine tuning. All that said, all ES suspensions are a compromise in some way, the more complex the firmware the better it will be. If you gave me one of those very costly Ohlins ES suspensions, even then I'd say no... well maybe, I'd want to ride it for a 1000 miles first.
Anyway, it is what it is, works mostly for the majority I'd say (who don't push it like I would), so you won't hear a lot of negative comments for the most part.

[extrememarine]

Thank you for sharing - this reinforces my decision to keep my Ohlin's fortified 2009 right where it is.

I know an ES would provide acceptable performance (suspension wise) except for when I have to let JWilly ride pillion back to the hotel after he's been following me...

[fontanaman]

Once set I never messed with it.

This right here. While the ES is fancy and all, I only ride solo and never fiddle with my suspension. Mostly because I don't know enough, but also because I don't ride hard enough or notice the need to fiddle much. When the time comes I'd pretty well convinced myself to go with a non ES model, and you help confirm it. Thanks for sharing all your findings on this, now and in the future as you continue to "Fiddle" with it.

I want to be clear. If I go with an non ES model, I certainly would get after market suspension. I only have experience with an 09 A model factory suspension - it was not satisfactory for my needs - however Yamaha has made a lot of improvements to the A model suspension over the years.

[fontanaman]

RaceTech (and others) use Eibach springs, pretty universally available..... I don't quite understand "opening up the shock assembly"... shouldn't have to open anything up to change a spring.
Don't worry too much about the preload "reset"... the procedure for that is in the FSM... can be done regardless of where it was before, but yes, zero it before removal a good idea.

Hi Ray.

One company wanted to open up the rear shock to make improvements to the rebound. They wanted to add shims to adjust the valve action. All at my risk and the outcome was not known nor could it measured on a machine. So the outcome is at the mercy of a tech who likely doesn't have much if any experience with the ES shock cause I am the only damn fool on this forum who is not thrilled with the ES.

[fontanaman]

Update. Race Tech just called. They do not have a spring for the ES. I asked about the Ténéré and he said it is a completely different shock. Much longer and I was trying to compare a SUV to a small sports car. Said he'd love to sell me something but had nothing for sale. Nice they called me back.

[danh600]

Update. Race Tech just called. They do not have a spring for the ES. I asked about the Ténéré and he said it is a completely different shock. Much longer and I was trying to compare a SUV to a small sports car. Said he'd love to sell me something but had nothing for sale. Nice they called me back.

I will trade my 2013A for your 2017ES.

[ionbeam]

Update. Race Tech just called. They do not have a spring for the ES...

I will trade my 2013A for your 2017ES.

Road Trip! Meet in Lebanon, KS and swap.

[wheatonFJR]

Update. Race Tech just called. They do not have a spring for the ES. I asked about the Ténéré and he said it is a completely different shock. Much longer and I was trying to compare a SUV to a small sports car. Said he'd love to sell me something but had nothing for sale. Nice they called me back.

I will trade my 2013A for your 2017ES.

Traitor.

[fontanaman]

I have had eyes on a new 2019 A model for a couple of days now. Ideally I could find a 2016 A model with low miles. The conversation with Race Tech today moved the I want an A model meter just a bit. I really don't know what I am going to do. I really like all the upgrades on the 17 so it will be 16 or newer if I go the A model route. That puts limits on the availability.

I will be riding the '17 to Red Lodge so I will learn more about setting the ES and I will learn to accept what it does well or not. Comfort/Convenience vs. Performance I appreciated in the past. Grrrrrrr.

Search for new spring is not done yet. Yesterday I read the FSM. It says to remove the rear shock one must remove the exhaust, center stand assy and the airbox - oh really? If this is what a shop does then it is not an inexpensive remove and replace. And shop work is hit or miss.

[raYzerman]

RaceTech (and others) use Eibach springs, pretty universally available..... I don't quite understand "opening up the shock assembly"... shouldn't have to open anything up to change a spring.
Don't worry too much about the preload "reset"... the procedure for that is in the FSM... can be done regardless of where it was before, but yes, zero it before removal a good idea.

Hi Ray.

One company wanted to open up the rear shock to make improvements to the rebound. They wanted to add shims to adjust the valve action. All at my risk and the outcome was not known nor could it measured on a machine. So the outcome is at the mercy of a tech who likely doesn't have much if any experience with the ES shock cause I am the only damn fool on this forum who is not thrilled with the ES.

A suspension company with a shock dyno could do this, but be prepared for some R&D experimentation and leaving your bike with them for a while. They already know conventional shocks and what works on them for a particular bike. Hopefully they'd embrace the opportunity if they were sure they could convince other ES folks of the benefits and sell some..... however, still need the right spring first, as always. If it won't hold you up, not much sense playing with damping until that's done.
If the ES has a shorter spring than the usual 6"... less coils means getting "coil bound" sooner, whereas my VFR OEM shock is 8"... plusher when you have more coils, more easily controlled with adjustable damping. The FJR-A shocks were two springs, both a tad short, either one by themselves would be awful. Together not so much, but undersprung as well... Just as a matter of interest, two springs in series has a formula for overall spring rate, which is included in my suspension matrix. Formula is [(K1)(K2) / (K1+K2). viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2373&p=119268#p119268
No matter, to make a custom spring they would have to make the ends flat (bent last half of coil to meet the second coil, shave off flat to sit on the spring seating area). Basically, I do not know the spring length, thus can't search for one, if one exists.
Valving is usually some plates with oil orifices, a shaft (bolt) with a spring and a stack of very thin washers. Adjust the spring and/or washer stack and size of washers.... we'll leave that to the professionals (RaceTech gives you the basics and tells you recommended shim stack, etc. and some spare parts to do it... for forks). Your ES system would just turn a valve to control oil flow into that valving assembly... same on aftermarket shocks with their adjusters. A whole hog system would have 3 or 4-way adjustable damping and preload, external reservoir (which I think the ES has). Nevertheless, still all R&D and Jim's the guinea pig..... opportunity for you to become the ES guru!!, LOL.
OK, all that said, gotta find the right spring........ is there a shimming possiblity to give a higher base preload... not ideal, but??
PS - you are not the only one not totally happy with their ES, but have found a way to live with it given it's compromises.

[raYzerman]

I have had eyes on a new 2019 A model for a couple of days now. Ideally I could find a 2016 A model with low miles. The conversation with Race Tech today moved the I want an A model meter just a bit. I really don't know what I am going to do. I really like all the upgrades on the 17 so it will be 16 or newer if I go the A model route. That puts limits on the availability.

I will be riding the '17 to Red Lodge so I will learn more about setting the ES and I will learn to accept what it does well or not. Comfort/Convenience vs. Performance I appreciated in the past. Grrrrrrr.

Search for new spring is not done yet. Yesterday I read the FSM. It says to remove the rear shock one must remove the exhaust, center stand assy and the airbox - oh really? If this is what a shop does then it is not an inexpensive remove and replace. And shop work is hit or miss.

It's all the labour...... removing reservoir, preload motor, etc.... yep not your average little shock service. I'd tackle it myself to save labour $$.
Calling Griff to the white phone, can we get a coupla pics perhaps and a wee measurement of that spring length and roughly what the ID is?

[Bounce]

Makes me glad I didn't get the ES version. Oh wait! Mine's an '03A when there was no ES and it's still not worn out, so... I didn't get ANY of those.

BTW: It's all my fault that Yamaha is discontinuing the FJR. I didn't buy enough of them.

[Road Runner]

Interesting read, thanks for sharing. My 07 with Traxxion AK-20's and Ohlins with 900 lbs shock was Awesome. It was on rails, and the harder I pushed it the better it liked it. It was a little harsh when going slow, but not to bad. I think I would get an A, not ES, and do the suspension again. What else is different between the 2 other than suspension?